I know we’ve spoken on here before about the (now officially ended) ban on interracial dating at Bob Jones University but if you’ve never actually seen the rule book in black and white here it is now:
Sometimes it takes actually seeing things written down to make them “real” to those of us who weren’t actually at the school when this policy was in effect. I know that’s the case for me. I read this handbook from 1995-96 and literally felt like I needed to throw up.
I apologize for the serious tone today but there’s just no way to make this funny.
136 thoughts on “Reader Submitted Photo: Student Handbooks BJU Edition”
Never liked the phrase “race”…
I thought humans were one “race”…..
I’d agree with you that ‘human’ is the only true race (i.e. species). I think it is unfortunate that we have further divided ourselves along something as foolish as skin color. We don’t do the same over hair color (except for stereotype blondes).
Don’t forget redheads. They even protested Wendy’s because of their racists logo, LOL. http://improveverywhere.com/2007/07/24/redheads/
You’re right, there’s no way to make racism funny.
I do like the line below that, “It is the business of Bob Jones University to know where its students go and with whom they associate.” Are they afraid the students will give the University a blacker eye than the administration. Doubtful.
I’m also curious about the top two lines of the page ‘Academy boys will not be permitted to [missing text] more than 24 months older than they are.’ Sounds like a limit on dating older girls? Can the girls date older guys?
When I was a student there eons ago female Academy students were not allowed to date college guys until they were juniors in high school (don’t remember if there was a specific age limit.)
It was acceptable for female minors to date adult males?
Wow, just, wow. Because I shouldn’t type what I am really saying.
No patriarchy here whatsoever.
I once went to a school that had grades pre-K- 12, and then a Bible Diploma Mill that would make “Old Paths” look like Harvard. High School girls were encouraged to date the college guys (many of whom were older than traditional college students). Several were married and pregnant before graduation.
… Not necessarily in that order …
Never been to BJU before, but in the Spirit of Jesus and true Christian brotherhood maybe we should applaude them for finally getting it right instead of derision for how long it took to get there. Just sayin’. We do love Jesus and his church here, don’t we? The past can’t be defended for sure, but do we need to beat a dead horse? The regular media already looks for ways to stir this pot.
When they are willing to apologize and call their policy “sinful” and an offence against God and their brethren then I’ll stop beating the horse. But they haven’t.
And they haven’t because the leaders at that school still believe the same racist lies that they always have. They haven’t changed their minds one iota. However, it became politically expedient for them to change their policies and so they did so for the “greater good.”
No doubt accountability is necessary. Have you spoken privately with them first before putting it in a public forum? There is an order in the Scripture about accusing leaders. It starts in private. Maybe you have, I don’t know. Like I said, in the Spirit of Jesus and true Christian brotherhood.
Aha! The Confrontation Initiation Tactic!
Nice try but no cigar.
Why, Jay? They don’t listen. Take it from someone who knows. As Rod Stewart said, “there ain’t no point in talkin; when there’s nobody listenin'”. Your little “confront” business sounds so spiritual, but it’s just a giant way to say “shut up” because you know as well as we do that they don’t listen.
Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of I Tim. 5:1 & 19 and James 3:9. No diversions here, bro. It’s that whole I Cor. 13 thing, too. Do I really have a sprit of reconciliation? You know, the Spirit of Jesus and true Christian brotherhood. This is not a “sweep it under the rug” mentality. The gospel calls us to look sin squarely in the face and see it for what it is. There is no defense for racism, but there is no defense for a Christian who will not acknowledge what is good.
Don’t you see? This isn’t about them. It’s about our hearts. We speak from its abundance. It’s the beam in my eye that needs to be dealt with first. When I take care of the beam I can see clearly to help my brother, not belittle and deride. This isn’t about defending a crusty university…it’s about OUR hearts. We have been revealed.
Jay: If you’re serious and not just pulling the old Fundy tactics, then you should know that many BJU grads HAVE confronted the university on this issue. See http://bju.typepad.com/bjuexposed/2008/06/historical-perspective-and-straight-thinking-at-please-reconcile.html for details since the “please reconcile” website is no longer up. You act like nobody has tried when in fact many SFL participants have already done what you’ve said. We tried, they don’t listen. Accept that.
Niiice. No Fundy tactics here. Just trying to make sure that I examine my heart before I publicly go after people in Christian leadership of any kind. I cannot control what they do, but I must look at my own motives first.
@JE. If that’s the case then we should never confront anyone about anything because we are all full of sin all the time.
Confrontation has never been the point for me in this conversation. Reconciliation is the point of this. We are driven to this by the gospel itself. The Spirit of Jesus and Christian brotherhood flow from the gospel of reconciliation. Confrontation, at some point, is biblical. Accusation with no desire to reconcile is not.
@JE: There is no indication in Scripture that Paul approached Peter before rebuking him in public. When a position is public, I don’t believe that the personal approach is necessary — UNLESS there is the possibility that the position may not be fully understood. Then, it is better to get clarification in private before publicly denouncing a position.
Darrell, I love this website. It makes me laugh. I went to BJU for two years, but will probably not be returning this semester. Take a look at this, though, especially the quote from Stephen:
There may be some who have not changed their minds about some things, and tbh, it really really irritates me. I myself am dating a girl from PR, and I’m a white guy lol. Honestly though, I think Stephen is trying to do what’s right (and I think he actually knows, in many cases lol).
Nice one, Jay Edwards. Nice. Here’s an answer: 500 BJU Alumni sent a petition called Please Reconcile, which was a statement asking them for a formal apology regarding their stand on the interracial dating rule.
Once they *knew* the document was being sent, they quickly made a statement about race that was posted on their website. http://www.bju.edu/welcome/who-we-are/race-statement.php
BJU is a school, not a person, and as such, doesn’t fall under the Mt 18 principle. However, many people tried individually talking to them without success.
From a previous post above:
Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of I Tim. 5:1 & 19 and James 3:9. No diversions here, bro. It’s that whole I Cor. 13 thing, too. Do I really have a sprit of reconciliation? You know, the Spirit of Jesus and true Christian brotherhood. This is not a “sweep it under the rug” mentality. The gospel calls us to look sin squarely in the face and see it for what it is. There is no defense for racism, but there is no defense for a Christian who will not acknowledge what is good.
I try never to get involved in anything involving race on this forum. But Jay you are out of your mind to think that we should just move on. BJU only issued an apology 3 years ago. Please spare me how we should just let the past be. They may have appologized but their actions are still the same. I am sure it is an unwritten rule there.
Most importantly the Christian church should have been the first organization behind the Civil Right Movement. Because if we are to love our neighbors as ourselves then our skin color shouldn’t matter. But many sat on the sidelines and did nothing at all. Furthermore many of their members were the ones with the hoses and dogs.
I have heard the N word from the pulpit when I attended IFB churches. I was told that I needed to stick to my kind when I was talking to a white girl. My family was consistently talked about how we were trying to be white. I can go on and on but I think your sad excuse to sweep the IFB stance on race under the rug is utterly insane.
PS… My mother just called me yesterday from the Sword of the Lord conference telling me that they are the only blacks there. I wonder why there are so few black that are active in these events?
A guy at my church (a BJU grad) said he would continue to wear his “rebel flag” belt buckle just to see if the new black woman attending my old IFB church would notice.
Of course, this is one guy that’s only one graduate of BJU – but he certainly wouldn’t listen to rock music. No siree Bob. Pun intended.
So sad – instead of loving his sister in Christ, he chose to do something to see if it would annoy her: how does this in ANY way show the spirit of Christ?
And yet, as you pointed out, he thinks he’s pleasing God by refusing to listen to rock music. God says NOTHING specific about rock music, but God is very clear how we are to consider others more highly than ourselves, how we are to consider how a dear Christian sister might feel were we to swagger around with our Stars-n-Bars belt buckle.
Why were we taught that we should eschew jeans, hair gel, wire-rim glasses, etc. so no one would be “offended”, and yet we weren’t told to put away items that many in our culture consider offensive, things that actually ARE a hindrance to the Gospel to some people.
One reason I was told not to listen to CCM was that it was a bad testimony; unsaved people might think I was listening to bad lyrics. Well, why isn’t the Confederate flag wearer told that his love of heritage might be interpreted as his defense of racism? Isn’t that just as bad of a testimony?
No one here is debating if racism is wrong. Your statement ” BJU only issued an apology 3 years ago. Please spare me how we should just let the past be. They may have appologized but their actions are still the same. I am sure it is an unwritten rule there.” What do you want us to take from this statement? What does 3 years of time mean? What amount of time is sufficient to receive forgiveness? Really? A time limit on forgiveness? When does this become vindictiveness? Have I suggested we sweep this under the rug for the greater good? I have labored hard not to, and I apologize if my thoughts have come across that way. I mean, even the fact that this was/is an issue for Christians is pretty hard to understand.
BJU was about 50 years late on that apology. So to me it comes across that they were perfectly fine with the practice. However, I must say at least they had the courage to put it on paper. Most IFB churches have this same policy but not the courage to say it. They did not just change these policies because they were not in line with the Bible. They did them from outward pressure forcing them to address them (i.e. losing tax exemption, secular media shedding light on their policies). They weren’t convicted for their sins, they just realized that racism is dying and they needed to get with the times.
@No Kool-aid please!!! Your statement. “However, I must say at least they had the courage to put it on paper.” That’s what I’m talkin’ about!! There are some good things that have come of this! Gotta start somewhere.
@Jay, I think you misunderstood what he said. He said they had the “courage” to put the “no interracial dating policy” on paper; in other words, for once, it was not one of their unwritten rules. But there is no true good in that. It just shows that they felt strongly about this nonsense and weren’t embarrassed (then) to put it into writing. You said at the top that you never attended BJU. That’s been quite obvious as we have read your posts. You need to realize that these so called “Christian leaders” are ruling their institution in a very un-Christlike way. As such, they should be challenged and confronted. This is not a reconciliation moment. Another reason that we “beat the dead horse” as you call it, is that we want prospective students and their parents to know what they are truly getting into if they attend BJU, PCC, HAC, and other FundyU’s. This is the shining of light into some very dark places.
Not actually true, Kool-aid; there is not even an unwritten rule. I’m white. My girlfriend, whom I happened to meet at BJU, is Hispanic, from Puerto Rico. No one ever said anything at all about interracial dating to us, and plenty of people in “student leadership” positions knew.
Just making sure nothing untrue is being said.
Greg, BJU doesn’t consider hispanic and white to be different races. They are both Caucasian as far as they are concerned. So, you’re point is not really a point at all.
Amazed, please let me know where you found that piece of information about BJU’s stance on Hispanics.
“Hispanics” in the sense that I was using it are not pure Caucasian, if Caucasian at all, in most cases; often they are a mix of native American, Caucasian, and even African descent.
Lol, I was merely trying to contribute information about my experience at BJU. I have absolutely no reason to defend that place (frankly, many things about it irritate me when I think about it).
So, yeah. 😉
Griping isn’t tolerated.
You played that direct quote well…Yup, they deal harshly with dissenters.
i attended BJU and earned a BA “degree” in bible from 2002-2005. trust me, many students there still believed the old racist lies! and more than one professor spoke of BJU’s refusal to back down from their racist policies in the 70’s and 80’s with fondness, although obviously with more of an emphasis on the importance of the university “sticking to its guns” than the actual issue at hand, which was, ya know, RACISM.
I nearly fell out of my chair one day when a BJ grad made a racist comment on my FB page. I had been to a Japanese festival, and a Japanese lady asked me if I was half-Japanese because of my interest in certain things at the festival. I don’t look Japanese at all, but I took it for the compliment it was and got a big kick out of it. My friend made a smart-aleck comment along the lines of “You, a J**?” I responded that if I could be mistaken for at least somewhat Japanese, then I wanted to know what I did right and keep doing it. That shut her up.
It is not racist to think that God wills for the races to be separate; it becomes racist when we think that the XXX race is superior to the YYY race.
(All of this kind of puzzles me; I grew up fairly color-free, where people were judged as individuals and not by their appearance).
I’ve never heard any Scripture justification for not dating outside one’s race… the closest was people pointing out passages in which the Jews were forbidden to marry people from other nations — but that was not because of race, but because they did not worship the true God.
I believe it has been said that if humans were dogs we would all be the same breed. This sort of obscene nonsense has no place in society and even less in the Church. “In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek”, but in BJU there is apparently such a distinction.
Seeing that in black and white, I am so ashamed that I attended there (late 1980s/early 1990s). That’s just embarrassing.
And BTW this was in thousands of student handbooks distributed to thousands of students through the years. It is worthy of being publically exposed and repudiated.
This was wrong.
The day after the KKK apologizes for its lynchings and cross-burnings – that’s the day that BJU will apologize for its racist policies.
My dad’s family was very racist. (I’m not sure about my mom’s side.) I grew up hearing jokes about other nationalities. Every one of my dad’s siblings (him included) have bi-racial grandchildren. Thankfully the jokes have stopped. It’s amazing how different it is when “they” become “us”. 😀
“…when “they” become “us”.
I really like that term. Multi-racial families have already appeared in my family. How can one not love a multi-racial grandchild? Maybe that was BJU’s biggest fear.
Interesting how a major political party still feels obligated to pay homage to that institution.
There’s nothing sweeter than to watch the transformation when someone realizes that there was no “they” or “us” to begin with. We are all “us”, and always were.
Jay, a couple quick points.
First, why do any of the passages apply to Bob Jones? Most of the criticism is directed to the university’s policies, and the institution collectively is not a church. Moreover, why do the leaders of this non-church-affiliated institution warrant any deference as “elders” or as Men of God by believers. Even if they are ordained, what authority do they have over me, an Anglican who lives a thousand miles away (or even more so among our Catholic friends on this board, for whom any ordination the university administrators have received is invalid)?
Second, do you seriously think that the Joneses or any other fundamentalist “elder” ever confronts any other non-fundy Christian leader before publicly berating them? Of course not. This does not justify doing the same thing if it’s in fact wrong (which I don’t think it necessarily is), but it does expose fundamentalist “elders” as the hypocritical frauds that many of them are.
Third, you need to go back and read the scriptures you quote. I Tim. 5:1 appears to be speaking about how one treats those older and younger than oneself rather than specifically dealing with how to treat religious leaders. And even if it were talking about elders in the sense of an office, see my comments above.
I Tim 5:19 specifies how to deal with accusations against elders, apparently to prevent scurrilous, unfounded rumors from bringing down the leaders of the church. The situation with BJU and the Joneses simply doesn’t fit: The scandal of their racism is public and has been so for decades. Despite the public scandal, they remain unrepentant. If anything, the verse that applies is I Tim 5:20: “But those elders who are sinning you are to reprove before everyone, so that the others may take warning.” In other words, once the scandal or sin is confirmed and public, the elders are to be rebuked and – this is key, because fundamentalists NEVER adhere to this clear teaching of scripture – rebuked “BEFORE EVERYONE.” And this should be unsurprising: If mere church members are to be brought before the congregation for public discipline for causing scandal, how much more important is it for leaders who cause scandal to the gospel they claim to proclaim to be rebuked publicly?
Note that your interpretation of James 3:9, which seems to be that public criticism of religious leaders is a cursing of men, which is a misuse of the tongue, directly contradicts the clear mandate of I Tim 5:20, which calls for a public rebuke of leaders who are sinning.
I think there’s a misunderstanding here. I am not trying to defend anyone, per se. What I want to think about is my heart, that is a sin factory in itself and why I want to publicly call to the carpet Christian leaders. I referred to those passages because they tell us how to address leaders. Yes, these men may not all be pastors, but ultimately all Christian leaders and institutions that receive young people and train them for ministry are accountable to the local churches that send them. They have been given a place of authority by churches. That institution is training future pastors, missionaries, etc. I guess really what I want to ask in all this is, is there really a heart of reconciliation behind all the talk here. Do we really wish to resolve this issue? To some these institutions could apologize for every wrong doing, shut down, bulldoze all the buildings and use them for land fills and they still would be upset. As far as James 3:9 that refers to any human, since we are all made in the image of God. These leaders would fit this description. Please do not mistake my position for one that is skirting wrong-doing.
Jay, I get where you’re coming from. I really do. And I would totally agree with you if I felt that their apology was sincere and that they were making every effort to make things right with students that they had enforced this policy with. But my brother, for instance, was warned that he was getting too friendly with a female Asian student when he was there, and he has yet to receive any kind of apology.
Also, you kind of had to be a student listening to the official announcement on Larry King Live to totally comprehend the chutzpah they demonstrated. This is the policy that cost the university its tax-exempt status, the policy the merited instant expulsion of a student, the policy instituted in order to avoid a one-world government and the arrival of the anti-Christ, according to the university. But Dr. Bob III actually sat on national television and said that the policy had never been important. I was a strong supporter of the school at that point, but even I gasped out loud and said to my husband, “He just lied!”
If the university were to a)apologize for the dating policy b)send personal apologies to all students directly affected (trust me, they have the records for this) and c)apologize for lying about it on national television, my respect for the school would be tremendously increased. I’m happy to give credit where credit is due. There’s just not much there to credit yet.
@Jay. Did you contact BJU about the need of reconciliation with Darrel and others over this issue? Let me know what their answer, and heart is.
Are any of those Joneses even ordained?
From what I understand, to borrow a phrase from Mark Twain, this practice has been totally stopped in name and now exists only in practice.
I would be very interested in knowing if there has been any actual inter-racial dating at BJU (or other fundy colleges) and if there was any negative reaction from teachers and/or administration.
Yes, when I was still there, I did see some interracial couples (it was a great thing to see!). And while they were not forbidden, you could tell the spirit of disapproval that came from many around them. It took a lot of courage for those students to decide that they wanted to date each other in the open.
They will know you are my disciples by how much you hate miscegenation. John 13:35 Original Klan Edition
“But Daddy, they’s integrated!”
I’m reminded, during the 1968 investigation into the My Lai massacre, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre they asked an eldrely grandmother if she could identify some of the American soldiers, at least whether they were black or white, she responded that they all looked the same to her.
Thanks for sharing It is really good to see it in black and white. I just wish I could have seen it before I went to BJU. This issue would have kept me away. I just really believed Dr. Bob’s apology on LKL. Or maybe I just really wanted to believe it.
And the thing was this is from 95-96. Long, long after it was established this type of thinking is wrong biblically. And supposedly long after this rule was “technically on the books, but not enforced.” Seems pretty black and white to me.
I apologize for this comment, but I just wanted to point out that all the talk about black & white is very punny 🙂
Bizarre. I mean seriously, it creeps me out. And yes, it makes me want to puke.
1996. But it was actually on the books until 2000. It’s so nice to know the US is post-racial (beginning promptly in ’65! or ’76! or…), and we don’t have serious problems with overt or institutional racism anymore. Heck, we can’t even *see* race! Or the history of disempowerment and dehumanization that goes with it.
Darrell said: “When they are willing to apologize and call their policy “sinful” and an offence against God and their brethren then I’ll stop beating the horse.”
BJU said: “In so doing [referring to the policy in question], we failed to accurately represent the Lord and to fulfill the commandment to love others as ourselves [this is the definition of “sin”]. For these failures we are profoundly sorry [this is called an apology].”
I’m a graduate of this school – I didn’t understand this policy then (even though I heard it defended a couple different ways) and I hated it more when God finally saved me. It’s a shame that it took secular media scrutiny and a few vocal students to effect change but I’m glad it happened.
That being said – I wonder, Darrell, if there is any apology that would really make you happy? Pardon the tone here – but perhaps you could create a form letter with just the right verbage and just let the school fill in the names and dates…
As a father of 6 kids, I can’t imagine any of mine attending BJU but at some point don’t you just have to give up your hate for that school and move on?
The language is unclear as to whether they’re talking about interracial dating or the previous policy of not admitting blacks at all.
They say “we allowed institutional policies to remain in place that were racially hurtful.” then reference the TV appearance by BJII by saying “On the same program, he announced the lifting of the University’s policy against interracial dating.”
They do NOT specifically call their policy of banning interracial dating “sin.” I believe that language is purposely vague in order to allow for maximum wiggle room.
I reject your premise. I try my best not to hate anybody. I do, however, hate the abuse of power, the twisting of Scripture, and the general madness that fundamentalism exhibits. And so I’ll talk about those things as loudly and as long as I can. Everybody should.
I believe it’s a quandry – continue to beat the horse and you get accused of beating a dead horse. Although, this school continues to turn out people who won’t listen to that ever broad category of “rock music”, but refuses to TRULY put an end to the racist people that graduate. So, it may be necessary to beat a dead horse.
I fear (or maybe jump for joy) that this will be the downfall of BJU. They’re so against having their reputation marred by students who go on unapproved mission trips over the summer, yet they are willing to pseudo-support the racist “old south” philosophy.
It’s plainly written in black and white that there will be no interracial dating. But, just four years later to this exhaustive handbook being issued to the student population, BJIII states it was literally an unwritten, not inforced, forgotten rule.
And he also said that generations of students never even knew about that rule. Surely Dr. Bob III wouldn’t knowingly lie on Public TV. It’s just too easy these days to check the facts. 😉 😉 😉
“unapproved mission trips”? Wha…? What business is that of theirs?
They make it their business.
Even graduates are listed whether or not they are in “good standing” with the university. Do something that BJU disapproves of enough, and you will get a letter in the mail revoking you membership in the alumni association.
The Fundy basement-college I attended claimed authority in our lives even when we were home for the summer. All handbook rules had to be followed because we ‘represented the school’ even when we weren’t attending. I knew several people who got in trouble with the school for doing things that were against the rules. I was personally called into the president’s office during my senior regristration and castigated for attending a different church during part of the summer (its the one I work at now).
Also, my freshman year one of my friend’s family was in the process of changing churches after an incident that I was witness to. The school gave him flack because he wasn’t attending the same church every week. Their position was pretty much that he should keep attending his old church until his family found a new one and then begin attending that one. 😐
Wow that is insane! And its from the 1996 handbook? Crazy
At the risk of invoking Godwin’s law:
“Marriages between Jews and citizens of German or kindred blood are forbidden. Marriages concluded in defiance of this law are void,……..”
The Nuremberg Law for the Protection of German Blood and Honor, 1935
Who knows? Considering the time period when the BJU rule was instituted it might be an apt comparison.
@Apathetic–I’ve been taking a class on Nazi Germany this summer, and have been shocked at the similarities I’ve seen between different aspects of Nazism and Fundy-ism as I study the literature of the time and its subsequent commentary.
➡ To be clear, I do NOT think that BJU and its acolytes are the reincarnation of Hitler and his followers or the re-creation of Nazi Germany, nor do I believe the sins of BJU to carry the same moral gravity and consequences as the sins of the Nazi regime.
However, I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve read a description of, for example, Hitler’s oratory rhetoric that fits perfectly with widely accepted Fundy preaching styles. I shake my head at some examples; upon reading others, I want to vomit.
Had I been brought up in the cult of Hitler instead of the cult of Jones, I believe I would have swallowed Hitler’s lies just as easily as I did Jones’s.
It is chilling and sickening to read the words of Nazis and hear in their harsh vituperations clear echoes of my upbringing and education.
Those are interesting points that you make. I have heard some fundy pulpiteers that would be dead-ringers for Mussolini if they were on a balcony.
Fundies seem to have bought into the whole ‘pure race’ myth. 🙄 I know I plan to keep my Scottish, Irish, English, Roman, German, Welsh, Austrian blood pure and unmixed. 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄
The interesting thing is that in the early 20th Century even the Irish were not considered “white”. I think there’s a book about that, but I don’t remember the title off the top of my head.
Here’s the link to that book…
I saw this picture a few days ago when Peter posted it on his blog. I was literally so angry I wanted to destroy something. And the fact it was there till 2000 makes it even worse.
This is so sick it’s mind-boggling.
BJU is an Corporation in South Carolina. It’s not the guy sitting next to you in church. I Timothy doesn’t say anything about how to deal with a Corporation in South Carolina. It’s laborious to hear this weak (go to your brother) argument ad naseum when they’re talking about a corporation in South Carolina that charges $80,000 for a product it’s selling. If we stopped calling it BJU and started referring to it as a Corporation in South Carolina, it would be put it in it’s proper context. The Bible doesn’t say anything about a corporation that’s been run by the same family for 80 years. It’s not Biblical, it’s not the Body of Christ. It’s a family run business. Sure, they position themselves as a big mother-church, draped in all things Christ – because it’s good for BUSINESS. They’ve done it so well that people come on here swinging for the fences in defense of…..a corporation. As if their pastor is being attacked. Recognize the family run business for what it is, and treat it as such.
True there is a corporate side of this, but they have, by default, been given authority by the churches that send students there. Therefore, shouldn’t those churches be able to hold them accountable? Let’s also not lose in the shuffle the thought that this is ran by individual human beings. If we pan the picture out too far then it really starts getting unclear and loses focus. It’s kind of like blaming a president for everything wrong in the country, but we seem to forget that there were individual congressmen and senators who also had to bring that legislation to him to sign. Those people need to be held just as accountable.
<blockquote:been given authority by the churches that send students there.
What kind of crazy cult talk is that?
Are these churches paying to send these kids to BoJo?
Just exactly what kind of authority is in play here?
And I would wager you, that it would be news to BoJo that they derive their authority over their students from the Student’s local church.
thanks for closing the blockquote george, that looks really unprofessional.
In fact, BJU exerts authority and control over many of these churches! The abuse of power within these circles is disgusting.
Hey bro, don’t go to the extreme here. It’s not cult talk. It’s reality. Don’t you think that if you are a trained professor teaching 18-22 year olds it assumes a position of authority, so to speak? That’s part of the master/padawan relationship, right? These churches obviously trust these places to train young students. Mainly, I am talking about ministry students but there is application to all, too. As far as the kind of authority we are talking about, I wouldn’t mean some ogrish(?) authority (which can be a problem). Just the authority any man has who holds a Bible and says,”Thus saith the Lord!” Whether I agree with what he is teaching isn’t the point. It’s the point that the Bible gives a person a kind of authority when it is being taught. Much responsibility comes with that. Yes, these “churches” pay to send the kids there. Their parents are members of the congregation–these churches. Sorry, that was slipped in kind of sideways, but I think you will understand what I’m saying. As far as BJ’s authority, they really have none except what churches allow them to have, by default. Hope that’s clearer?
Jay, obviously you’ve never been to Greenville, or attended one of the “orbital” churches – churches started by BJU faculty. Most of them are large, extremely conservative, separated to the nth degree, and if – God forbid – they decide to do something that BJU administration frowns upon (such as use contemporary music), they will lose a very large chunk (in some cases, as much as half) of their congregations. The university will put them on their unapproved list, and neither faculty, staff, nor students will be allowed to attend there.
In fact, one of these churches was put on the black list for… get this… allowing a mixed race (black and white) couple into membership.
So, it’s not the churches that have influence over BJU. It’s the other way around.
FTR, churches don’t send students to university. Parents do. And in some cases, students send themselves.
Tkikatu speaks the truth! And I would add that there are big “feeder” churches in Michigan, Indiana, and Pennsylvania to name a few who would threaten to not send their students to BJU if the same “standards” are not kept. There’s enough corporate style pandering to go around.
AND, I would add that if there is too much “reformed” talk from a local pulpit that you will be black-listed as well. I believe the BJU term is called “off-limits”.
Aaaaaah George is after me too. Its Tikatu. Sorry Tik!!
BJU – standing without apology – for anything!
It wouldn’t be surprised if this whole “no interracial dating” thing was just Plan B for the whole “no black people allowed” deal. I mean, think about it – I think there’s a common thread among minorities (for lack of a better term) that attend BJU, and that’s that it was (and probably still is) difficult to meet someone at BJU because of the no interracial dating rule. They may have intended for it to be that way, considering public opinion was against them for not admitting blacks to the university, except that they be married.
I mean, it’s hard to fire people, but you can make it completely unbearable for someone to continue to work. Same thing applies here: just make it incredibly undesirable for those you don’t like to attend. Combine Plan B with some out-of-context Biblical support (which doesn’t exist – but hey, who’ll know the difference!?) and voila – perfect set-up.
I realize this argument may be a little flawed as I’m not really well versed in BJUisms – but it was just a thought. Sorry if I’m behind the times, as well.
@JE – So now we’re drilling down and getting to the bedrock. You still ascribe ‘authority’ to BJU because they’ve been ‘given’ authority by churches who ‘send’ students there. So if I’m reading correctly, BJU has the same authority as the church in your mind, because churches grant it to them when they ‘send’ students there. I would argue that none of that is Biblical. The church can’t cede it’s authority to anything else, let alone a family run business. This is the crux of the argument, and where the water gets muddy for a lot of people. They view BJU through a prism of ascribed Biblical authority, even though BJU isn’t a church, doesn’t call itself a church, and refuses to associate with any demonination. They are very happy to be viewed through a prism of Biblical authority, it’s good for their bottom line. I can tell you from first-hand knowledge that they don’t conduct anything internally as a church. No one is allowed to face their accuser. The head of BJU has no challenge to their authority, except for a rubber-stamp board that has never disagreed with anything the president has done or said during 4 generations of the same family leadership. They own a plethora of art that they would never sell to feed any poor people, or even keep 30 year employees on the payroll. They act and operate based solely on what affects their bottom line. Jiffy Lube has as much Biblical authority as BJU does.
Don’t make that assumption. There is a difference between the authority of the church and an overflow extension of the church. One birthed the other for sure. Authority from God is waaaay different than what comes by default. The institution is accountable to the churches that are represented. I don’t know of any institutions that state things this way, do you? I think that mentality is missing in Christian higher education, especially in the fundamentalist realm where someone starts a “college” because the other guys aren’t doing things “right”. You know whut I’m sayin’? Soooo, in that sense there are many professors who are better teachers and preachers than the pastors of the churches who send the kids. That’s a point of conflict and can tend to lead to institutional loyalty, which we all know exists in the fundamental realm. (that’s one of my pet peeves) I liked the Jiffy Lube analogy, too.
“demonination”–ha ha, love it! 🙂 Must have been a Freudian slip!
I went to seminary in the deep south from 2007-2010. While I met many wonderful people there, I also met dozens of people (in a grad school of just 180) who still held amazingly racist views. A prominent baptist church next to my school moved from downtown during the “pray-ins” of the 1960’s to its present location in a white-dominated suburb and still barred black members into the 1990’s (to my knowledge that was the last vote taken to deny membership to a black person, and I’m willing to bet its just not come up since). I am Hispanic, yet pass for white, and my light complexion allowed me access to many “private” conversations where I was told how Mexicans are plague on this nation and how the church should stand against them and their generally pagan ways.
Many students who did not vocally defend the most radical views I heard nonetheless tolerated them and even urged me to try to understand better that its “just part of the culture.” They would readily give a pass to anyone who made a racist statement and condemn the one making the complaint against such talk.
The school sponsored some racial-reconciliation seminars and groups (although the “liberal” professor who led these has since been let go, many saying it was for his “extreme” views). When I took part in such programs, I found that they were full of African-American students and rarely did any of the white students (making up 90% of the student body) believe the topic was important. The whites generally believed that since we were not firing water hoses at the blacks, things were way better and they shouldn’t complain.
A good friend I met there (black) found his brother lynched (shot by the KKK) in 2002 despite the belief that the south has come a long way.
We did have a good number of BJU grads at our school and I can totally believe that they honestly believe that since slavery has been abolished, black people shouldn’t complain about anything (such as bans on interracial dating).
That is what has bothered me for years. I am a white guy from the South. It is frequently assumed that I won’t have a problem hearing racist comments based on my complexion and gender.
I actually do have Latino friends (and gay, and black, and Jewish, and Muslim etc etc etc) and I find it very offensive to hear this junk or read it online. I believe that it is very hurtful to people and I do not think it should go on.
Yes, it may be part of the culture. (Please, I do not want to restart THAT argument) If it is, it still should go. You know what? Sometimes the culture needs changing and adjusting.
It’s so funny that when we say pants on women or music with drums is part of our culture, they say, “No, reject it! Don’t cater to culture.” But then they excuse racism because of “culture.” That’s why God’s Word is to be our guide, not our culture. If it’s not in God’s Word, we have Christian liberty. If it’s in God’s Word, we need to obey it, whatever the culture is or was.
I’m going to assume that those who have called Darrell out for publicly posting this before privately contacting BJU did, in fact, privately contact Darrell before publicly posting here.
That would, after all, be the only consistent thing to do.
My bad, Darrell
Love this! 💡
My question is: what the hell is an Amphitorium?
“Amphitheatre” mixed with “Auditorium”. It’s the big meeting place on campus. Seats roughly 7,000. Easily one of the creepiest and ugliest buildings I’ve ever had the misfortune to visit.
Amen to the creepy and ugly bit. It’s so dreadful, the poor decorators just covered the walls with drapes and carpet.
Obviously you did not step next door and visit the Rodeheaver Auditorium (pre-renovation). Much, much scarier than the Amphitorium. I really do think it’s haunted, and I pity the poor custodial crew that work there now…
Yeah, all that purple and gold was really…something.
Well, something else might be a more accurate description.
LOL! I worked a summer on the custodial crew on the night shift doing cleanup after they had replaced all the windows in the building (It was my job to scrape off the manufacturers labels from the glass and clean them). I was alone for hours at a time going from window to window, and heard lot of weird and spooky noises at night in that place…
This white boy took his black wife to chaperone a youth group outing to “Farm Fest” about 5 years ago. I thought it was hilarious to walk around the campus holding my wife’s hand. Yes its still there, but I have to remember there are some BJU grads that have repented of this position, and other things. So I try to get a feel for the person before I roll my eyes when I hear “BJU.”
We have also attended church with a diehard BJU family for about 6 years and while the relationship was rocky at first, I think it is amazing how the Lord made them reevaluate their view of us after seeing that interracial couples can and do love and serve the Lord.
Something that hasn’t come up here – even though the ban on dating was officially dropped in 2000, parental permission was required for people of different races to date. Is this still policy?
No, it’s not.
Jay – Are you high? Your last post makes me think you are. I think you’re telling me to not assume what you say is true? What is an “overflow extension of the church”? Is that what you consider BJU to be? What extension of the church charges $80,000 before you can set foot on it’s premises? Bob Jones birthed BJU, not The Church, that’s why it’s called Bob Jones University. That’s why his family runs it, and flies around on it’s private plane. Have you ever seen a Bob Jones’ Baptist Church? The “institution is accountable to the churches that are represented”? What does that mean? Somehow you think that churches control where adults decide to go to college? To purchase an advanced degree? How about, the institution should be responsible to the people that pay it for a service? How’s that for a concept? You seem to have a mental tic, that all things BJU start in the local church. I feel like you were consistent, and consistently wrong, trying to make that point until your last post which seems to be a rambling attempt at sliding out from underneath your lousy argument.
Ok. This is starting to become a labyrinth. Lol. Last time I checked I wasn’t high. These Christian institutions SHOULD be extentions. That was my point there. That said, there SHOULD be accountability to the congregations represented. No, no, no. It has nothing to do with the congregation deciding who goes to what institution. That never even entered my thoughts. Mind you, many kids may not even consider why they go where they go. Mom & Dad tell them, their friends are there, it’s far away…… Alot of churches have institutional loyalty, don’t they? Usually because the pastor or staff went there. So, they usually trust that institution to teach what they think is proper (this is theologically speaking, of couse). That loyalty could many times be a blind loyalty and therefore that church (pastor and staff) may be less willing to actually hold an institution accountable even when they might disagree with it. Holding them accountable because they pay for a service isn’t a bad reason, either. As far as all things BJU starting with the local church, that just seems how it should be. There are other institutions that have this same issue (i.e. PCC). How things should be and actuality are far apart it seems. Maybe this is more lousy than before, I don’t know. That mental tic you mentioned came through my last post,eh?
No…no…he’s not high. Sooooooo not high. 😎
During the last IFB dating series I sat through, one of the speakers passed out an anonymous questionnaire in advance. One of the questions asked us to rank how important various features were for us in a significant other. Among the potential characteristics were “of the same race.” The speaker himself was in an interracial marriage, and at the time I thought the question was ridiculously irrelevant.
But all of a sudden, I understand now why caring (or not caring) about this particular characteristic would be significant to fundies. One of my fundy friends told me she ranked “of the same race” at about #4 (1 being most important, 10 being least), which surprised me. Then again, given institutional leaders like BJU in fundyland, it shouldn’t surprise me that its followers will tend towards close-mindedness and intolerance…
I think that’s a great question for a questionnaire like that — not because race *should* be a big deal in choosing whom to marry, but because it has the potential to help people recognize racism in themselves (or in the culture in which they were raised.) And you can’t challenge or change something that you haven’t even recognized yet.
An organization who’s GOAL is interacial marriage?? Who does that??
I would just like to point out that, to those of us who attended BJU after the policy was revoked, this is a moot point.
Am I a racist? No. BJU didn’t make me one, and neither did my Klan, cross-burning family.
I think it fair to say that those who want a full apology will never get it from the current administration.
Someone asked if the Jones’ were ordained. I ask: why does it matter? In the 20+ years that members of my family have been attending BJU, not one Jones has ever claimed to be a pastor.
But they sure do preach a lot, don’t they?
BJSr was licensed to preach by the Methodist-Episcopal Church, South. It is not considered full ordination. BJJr was ordained by the Christian Missionary Alliance. I have no idea if BJ3 or SJ were/are ordained by any church.
In only asked that question about ordination of the Joneses to point out the problems of accountability and authority. There’s probably nobody who can “pull” ordination papers. And there has never been any accountability.
*I (sorry about the typo on the first word!)
When I see things like this, I am dumbfounded that this disgusting attitude passes for “Christianity” among so many people! (And yes, I think this sentiment is still alive and well among many.) I live not too far from BJU, and I think that I’m just beginning to see the tip of the iceburg of how twisted and destructive that place really is. I always thought it was a super weird place, but I truly had no idea how deep and sinister the problems really were. I felt sick reading that, and I can only imagine how degraded I might have felt if I had been a minority student reading that in 1996. Appalling.
I once talked to a friend who is a BJU grad about the change in the race policy. He told me “There is a difference between taking a stance and taking a stand” To me this statement did not make any sense, but it also sounded like he was repeating the party line. I wonder if anyone has heard that phrase from a BJU grad.
For the Jones’, their policy on race was as important of their religious beliefs. This is why it is difficult religious leaders to admit they were wrong. Because if the Jones’ can be wrong on race, then they be could wrong about everything else.
I believe Bob Jones was an evil. His racist form of Christianity harmed millions of lives, not only the non-whites who were victim of his bigotry, but the closed minded whites who robbed themselves of potential friends because the bigotry they learned from “Dr Bob”. And they also missed out on some great food, culture and music.
What kind of ego does it take to allow a college to be named after one self? To create a cult of personality where people quote “Doctor Bob” more than they quote Jesus. To create a fundie monarchy (not that uncommon)
I attended a “moderate” fundie church, but the Jonesians were always causing problems. Our pastor would tell prospective new members if they followed “Dr Bob” there was a BJU church across town. But still Jonesians would join and try to change our church. They would complain about women wearing slacks, our hymn book, the military men who brought their Asian “mail order brides” to church, not enough “Dr Bob” books in the church library. Etc…
BJU’s days are numbered. I will have a beer when the property is turned into an Islamic Learning Center.
My older cousin went to BJU back around 1968. I was a kid and didn’t really know much about it except that she was forced to wear her skirt past her knees. I have over 20 cousins on that side of the family and most of us were very close with family gatherings at the grandparents several times a year, Easter, Thanksgiving, Xmas and other times. After my cousin’s marriage to a home-town boy, they moved 150 miles away and never attended another family gathering. Even at Xmas, she her parents and brother (and his family) had to drive up to their home to celebrate the holidays. Decades have past since “we” have seen any of them. Her kids are not even aware of their heritage.
Around ten years ago, she and her husband attended a family funeral and I had time to talk to them, pleading with them to come to a family reunion and bring the kids so they can learn part of their heritage. They were both very non-committal about my suggestions.
Finally at Thanksgiving 2009, she appeared minus her husband with ONE of her four kids, a college age daughter who was indeed a total stranger to the family, none of whom had ever met her.
I suppose isolating her children from the entire extended family was part of the family values she learned at BJU. Must not corrupt decent Xtians with other family members who might not measure up.
It’s a pretty sad commentary on BJU. And yes, I think she was already somewhat of a “snob.” But the exclusiveness promoted at BJU only solidified her strong opinion of her own righteousness. Isn’t it convenient that good Christians always raise good Christian kids. Isolation helps.
I’ve been away for a while and just missed all the fun! In this whole discussion about BJU’s rule about interracial dating and whether or not their so-called “apology” went far enough, it seems people are forgetting the HISTORY behind WHY they implemented the rule. The rule was implemented in 1973 because that was when the state of SC passed legislation prohibiting discrimination based on race (yes it took SC almost a decade after the Civil Rights Act to do so). Prior to that, BJU did not allow any non-whites to enroll..period. 😯 Since they were FORCED to allow non-whites to enroll, they instituted the rule to protect the white virgin girls from being enthralled and swept of their feet by those savage africans (the story about asian-non-asians wanting to date is pure bullshit). Racism is INGRAINED in the Jones family history and the school’s history, and that’s why people like me (and Darrell) don’t put much worth in their so-called apology. Their explanation is lacking. I would have preferred a “we were racists, we admit it, it was wrong, we’re sorry” instead of the watered down language they put out there.
I’ll be more believing in their “changed ways” when I see pictures of an interracial wedding in the War Memorial Chapel.
@Jay – I appreciate your candor when you say
“As far as all things BJU starting with the local church, that just seems how it should be.
“As far as all things BJU starting with the local church, that just seems how it should be.”
So you concede that there is nothing in the Bible to support anything they’re doing, or how they’re doing it. Your logic is “that just seems how it should be.” I believe that you aren’t alone in your reasoning. I think the Jones’ family would agree with you that the Jones family should be in charge, because “that just seems how it should be.”
@AfterGlow-“As far as all things BJU starting with the local church, that just seems how it should be.
The Bible doesn’t say the gates of hell will not prevail against BJU, but the church. Everything that calls itself Christian should derives its beginnings/authority from the church/local churches. The church is God’s idea, educational institutes should benefit the church.
“So you concede that there is nothing in the Bible to support anything they’re doing, or how they’re doing it.”
Wow, that’s a pretty strong statement and would cause me to throw the baby out with the bathwater. When we see Jesus, I wonder how many souls will rejoice with us that were trained at BJU? We have to be careful here. We might not like many things but we do need to acknowledge the Holy Spirit’s work. If we don’t acknowledge the Spirit’s work we are in danger of saying what the Pharisee’s said of Jesus. “He casts out devils by the Devil.” That treads on blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
And my mom wanted me to go to a religious college…I’m glad I stayed away from all of them and chose a secular school.
This is not faked. I graduated from their High school and this policy was quite infamous. To give a little more context to it, The policy was created around the civil rights era when white people were…not on the best terms, shall we say. It is true that the policy ended.
@Jay – I’m pretty sure that when we see Jesus, it won’t be BJU being praised. As a matter of fact, I doubt BJU will even come up.
@Jay – It cracks me up that you can get from criticism of BJU to “blasphemy of the Holy Spirit” in one paragraph. You want BJU to be holy so bad, you try to equate criticism of BJU with blasphemy. You’re pathetic.