265 thoughts on “PBW Day 4: Hunting a Helpmeet”

    1. I’m convinced that one could break most fundy email accounts or user names by using a few well chosen variations including KJV, 1611, AV with a few other popular fundy terms.

  1. You captured the attitude so well that I feel my stomach getting upset!

    Here’s some implications:
    “ability to follow simple instructions” – because you’re so stupid, I’ll try not to complicate things too much for you.

    “without question” – because your opinion doesn’t matter

    “must show aptitude for enforcing modesty rules on other women” – we can’t let the Muslims be stricter on the “weaker sex” than we are

    “not sassing back to menfolk” – otherwise you’ll get a beat down

    “please send . . . photo” – because if you’re not pretty enough, you’ll be the reason I watch porno on my computer. Hey, BTW, can you include a photo of your mom too so I’ll know if there’s a tendancy toward weight-gain with age in your family?

    1. “please send Photo”

      No doubt. Why is it that these fundie moms that homeschool and have a slew of kids and live under their husband’s thumbs and proud of it have long stringy hair and long skirts? I feel so sorry for them and want to give them a day at the salon. This is the way they are supposed to look, but it’s not an appealing look.

    2. ““please send . . . photo” – because if you’re not pretty enough, you’ll be the reason I watch porno on my computer.”

      Sadder words were never spoken. This idea was prevalent among the guy students at Fundy U Florida when I attended. It went along with the ‘when I get married all my porn problems with be over’ philosophy, like they were going to Heaven or something.

      If you don’t want to fulfill the desires of the flesh, don’t pass the blame, and don’t live in a fairytale, WALK IN THE SPIRIT!! No one else can do that for you.

  2. I’ve been waiting all week for this entry and you didn’t disappoint. I dated one preacher boy for about a month at my FU. You hit the mark so close to the bull’s eye that my stomach did a little flip. After my first experience with the PB, I just told any other ones that asked me out that I wasn’t called to be a preacher’s wife so they shouldn’t waste their time on me. 😆

  3. Was this real? I can’t help but hope/pray this is a womens shelter trying to help anyone who would respond.

    Count me w/ pw being sickened at the thought of all the abuse & degradation a woman would have to have been through in her 18 to 20 years to respond to this is heart breaking. Not to even mention the tmerity to insist she be adept at perpetuating the abuse on all the women they can find to “minister” to.

    Outrageous if that is a legit ad.

        1. Lol I’m in the military now. That would make me too independent for their liking. Oh well, I’m very happily married to a man who’s secure enough in himself to not feel threatened by a woman.

          I spent four years at HAC. My biggest strengths were in maintenance and wiring (it’s what my dad did), but they never let me on because maintenance was ‘for men’. They tried so hard to make me sweeter and more ladylike. I’m more ladylike now that I left that place.

        2. I worked in a male-dominated job field (law enforcement)after graduating fundy-u. It made my mother-in-law and her friends very uncomfortable. They’d always say “But you just work with women, right?” And when I told them I supervised any inmate who came to jail, they gave “the look.” But, hey, it’s not like they ever liked me anyway. However, now that my husband is an active duty military chaplain, his friends sometimes think they have to watch their language around “the preacher’s wife.” After they find out that I’ve heard (and occasionally used 😳 ) some words that would make them blush, they’re more relaxed, don’t feel self-conscious, and open up.

  4. This reminds me of a teacher I had- the class was “evangelism 101”
    Once I walked into class and he said, I looked “ravishing”..he had a way with words with the women..
    He would teach us powerful truths like..
    …knock on the hinge side of the door.
    …strangers use the front door, friends use the back door
    …stick your foot in the door when they open it

    oh and there was this gem of a truth

    …always marry a woman who plays piano..

    one day one of the sassy little freshman put up their hand and asked the teacher..
    “Bro Smith, does your wife play piano?”
    “Welllllll….no”, he said in his rather large creepy voice…

      1. really, what is one to assume when someone 1) prevents you from shutting the door or 2) knocks at an entry that is completely non visible to passerbys?

        I am going to assume you intend harm and act appropriately.

        1. Exactly. The only logical response is that they mean harm, and you better believe I’m going to respond accordingly.

        2. Right on!
          I usually keep my .45 automatic pistol behind the door frame when I answer it for someone I don’t know. Once the foot went in the door, the owner of that foot would be learning just how large a half inch hole looks when its pointed at your face.

  5. Secretly I’m embarrassed to tell the girls I meet that I’d like to plant a church in a large city somewhere, someday… They instantly think “PREACHER BOY” and post that kind of advertisement on me. Usually I take great pains to talk about Skillet, Red, Breaking Benjamin, or R-rated movies VERY quickly after they start scooting away.

    1. Do you really want to plant a church in a large city? Once upon a time I had the same aspirations. Growing up in Fundy land it sounded like large cities were dens of liberals and foreigners who didn’t have viable church options, and I was daring enough to go help them in their depraved paradise. Then I actually moved to the city, in the city. I found out that the opposite is true. Christianity is alive and well. It is there, but somehow completely missed by Fundamentalism and BJU. I think a large part of it is that Fundamentalism simply doesn’t work in urban areas. I’m convinced that Fundamentalism is suburban.

      Either way move to the city and check it out for yourself. You might be surprised how much Christianity exists even in the city. Also if you do plan a church in the city word of wisdom, start neighborhood churches. Suburban mentality doesn’t work in the city. 2 miles in the city is way > then 2 miles in the burbs. Churches need to focus not on the city they reside in, but even down to the neighborhood within that city. It makes a huge difference.

        1. Depends on the city. The farther west you go, the more likely the city could use a church. The exception is California which is its own world.

        2. I have a Fundy friend who moved to Idaho and moving away from the Fundy church they’ve spent their life in. I thought it was a great chance to get him to experience a different kind of church. I spent days on the computer looking up churches. All I could find was Fundy churches and Mormons. Drat. Someone needs to start a good church there.

      1. Mark Rosedale is right. I live in D.C.and though our elected officials act like heathens there are many churches that are very active here. My church has two major ministrys in the inner city. Furthermore I know of at least two IFB churches in the in city, one located in Southeast which is the worst area. Though more liberal than the rest of the country inner cities are just as or even more on fire for God than rural areas. My church this weekend is giving out 70,000lbs of food for the needy. Also we make it goal to advertise on Pop, Rock, Hip-hop stations around this area reaching over 8 million people. The inner city church is thriving.
        Sorry I posted this at the wrong location.

      2. @Mark,
        Good observation. I’ve felt that if an “inner city” church was to be started, it should rather be (as you pointed out) neighborhood-house/home churches rather than the standard building-program church found everywhere else.

      3. I don’t need to tell you about Redeemer Presbyterian in my small city known as NYC. 😆 But I will diverge from Mark on one point of minutiae. I went to a fundamentalist church my whole life. In NYC. Yes. Manhattan. I think I’ll add a little corollary to Mark’s stellar theory and say that Fundamentalists exist where predominantly conservative cultures exist. In NYC its’ possible because, as anyone that’s been there knows, you have stratification of cultures based largely on what neighborhood you happen to be in. The Russians are usually conservative Russians, We Hispanics are very conservative when we initially come here, and it goes for every people group you’ll find in the city. Outside of a few pockets of conservatism in the city, you won’t find many Fundy churches. Mine was in Washington Heights (north of Harlem), a part of NYC in which you need to speak Spanish to survive. There are others in Brooklyn (mostly white-collar children of immigrants and a short drive from Long Island, i.e. the burbs 😆 ) and Queens (see Brooklyn). The ones that consistently surprise me are First Baptist Church of NYC (located on 79th street in Manhattan, pastored as of late by Matthew Hoskinson, a friend I met at a BJU-orbit church – FBC’s probably not ‘Fundy’) and Matt Recker’s church in The Village. A hardcore KJV-only Fundy church in the village won’t cut it, so I’m curious as to how much they’ve toned it down.

        1. I agree with that Daniel. There are pockets of conservatism and Fundamentalism can actually survive in those pockets. My observation is that Fundamentalism as a whole espouses a culture or way of life that is often at odds with urban life. It works great in the suburbs, but doesn’t translate well at all in the city at all, and I’m not sure that Fundamentalists themselves realize the disconnect. For instance insisting on 3 hard scheduled services a week with compulsory attendance. Park Street has 4 services on Sunday, but they are meant to represent 4 distinct options for attendance on a given Sunday, and there is no hard week night service, but rather encouraged small group attendance. To make things better there are actually several small groups that meet on Sunday. Of course the reason is simple. Though the church is <5 miles away from my house getting there by any method of transportation takes time. If I went in the morning ate lunch with friends went home you'd already have to be leaving for the evening service by the time you got home.

          Another reason it tends not to work is the extreme emphasis on a nuclear family or with children. That's not to say those things aren't important, but in the suburbs most people are grouped by families, and children in the cities it is quite different. But I'm not sure Fundamentalism is able to see the distinction or even if they could if they could avoid calling it out.

          Oh and a KJVO church in the village? Wow I'd like to see how that one is working out. If I had moved there I would check it out just for laughs.

      4. ^^^ This.

        There was a time I thought Philadelphia had two, maybe three gospel-preaching churches; one of them was hardcore KJV-only and I wasn’t sure if I should include that in my count. Now that I live there, I know of four good Christian churches within five miles of mine…and that’s because there are quite a few folks in my church that go to other churches on Sunday mornings, then come to our late afternoon service! (Yeah, it’s nice having only one service at 4p.) Of course the churches are all kinds of different stripes, but like Mark said, they all go unnoticed by Fundy U standards. If you’re serious about moving to the city (GO! DO IT!) I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised at the level of Christian interaction you’ll find under the umbrella of Christian Orthodoxy.

        (BTW, after spending a decade in in SC, every time I see “FU” I think, “What’s Furman University have to do with anything?”)

        1. ^^^ <3 this! Mount, you're the man. On an interesting side note, I'm posting from Reveal. Just passed by your former place of employment. Made a point to say your name as much as possible. LOL! 😆 I'm here to watch Shakespeare. Yay for The Tempest!

          You're 100% right. Coming to SC was one of the hardest things I did after I left the Fundysphere. I actually met believers in NYC that were different from what I was growing up. Redeemer was a box of surprises. I believe it was Grant that told me it would be like getting saved all over again. He wasn't kidding. Every Sunday is like getting saved all over again. And it lasts. Not because of man's empty rhetoric (sorry Camille), but because God's Spirit speaks so much better. I'll spare you the Oz illustration …

          No I won't:


          Thanks Grant and Camille! 🙂 😉

        2. I was born in Philadelphia. Growing up I took many trips to NYC So, when I moved to SC and heard so many people at BJU talking about going on mission trips to NYC and talking about Philadelphia being in “Christian Famine,” I never understood that one. I always thought about why every year BJU sent a “mission team” to NYC was really to see the city. Oh well!

          Now, I moved back into the area a few years ago. I go to a wonderful church, not far outside of the city. My current church would not pass music and dress standards at BJU, but imo, reach many more people because my church does not appear to look down their spiritual noses at people.

      5. It is my observation that contemporary as well “liturgical” churches tend to be in the cities while traditional ones rule the suburbs and villages. Agreed.

        1. I actually stay in an Asian country where Christianity there is much more conservative and where “mainline” churches are evangelical by U.S or European standards. We’re pretty culturally conservative as well.

          The IFBs here are comparatively mild compared to the US counterparts – or at least on the outside. My previous IFB(X)-KJVO church is considered one of the more extreme ones. Oh, we even believe that Baptists are not Protestants and that we can trace our heritage back to John the Baptist, the Donatists, and such.

          Tight government regulations concerning evangelism and education means the IFBs must be more low-key in their activities. Of course, the “inner circle” folks in my prev. IFBx church still homeschooled their kids and such.

          And they’re smart. They hide their IFBx beliefs in a mainstream IFB “conservative family-friendly” wrapper. When you have even mainline evangelicals and NON-CHRISTIAN people praising the site of a homeschooling IFBx group, you know how well their PR abilities are.

          Only when you have joined their church for awhile and even became a “preacher boy wannabee” (like what I used to be), then you really know what they really believe in. Hear people questioning others’ salvation behind their back? Check!

    2. 2 other things I’d add. If you have to hop in the car to get into the city you’re not in the city. And if the pastor lives an hour away from the church…he won’t be a good pastor at all. You have to get to know the area intimately if you will be effective.

  6. What a clever way to use the enforcing modesty rules idea! 🙂

    There was a guy at my Fundy U who was very vocal about his desire to marry a woman with “child-bearing hips.” No lie, he used that exact phrase. Poor fellow couldn’t figure out why no one would date him.

        1. Well, that explains why so many PBs and church workers tend to check out women’s backsides. Just looking for those hips 🙄

          Some bleep-bleep-bleep did that to me when I was in my sister’s wedding. He didn’t realize I could see his reflection in the door and see exactly where his eyes went. Oh yeah, this jerk was married with four kids. This was the same creep who tried to swipe my then-fiance for one of his daughters while I was at Fundy U and continues to creep out Mom. I’m taller than him now, so maybe I should put my Fundy U judo skills to work next time I’m in town?

        1. I could never have majored in Marriage and Motherhood! The only HAC class I ever failed was Christian Womanhood! :-O

        2. BTW, since you have actual experience w/ those nut jobs, do you know what the difference between a 4 year & a 2 year Marriage & Motherhood degree is? And what’s the diff between either & the one they actually named “Missionary’s Wife” (Associates only)? Hope that’s not insulting, but I can’t imagine what you would learn there in 4 years about marriage & motherhood other than maybe how to abuse your kids?

  7. Mark Rosedale is right. I live in D.C.and though our elected officials act like heathens there are many churches that are very active here. My church has two major ministrys in the inner city. Furthermore I know of at least two IFB churches in the in city, one located in Southeast which is the worst area. Though more liberal than the rest of the country inner cities are just as or even more on fire for God than rural areas. My church this weekend is giving out 70,000lbs of food for the needy. Also we make it goal to advertise on Pop, Rock, Hip-hop stations around this area reaching over 8 million people. The inner city church is thriving.

    1. You wouldn’t be talking about Kenny Baldwin’s church, would you? I met him when I was an intern in DC. Loved him! Great pianist! And on fire. Disagree with him doctrinally, but I always respected Black fundies more than white ones anyway (hope that didn’t sound too racist coming from this Latino).


      1. It cool I am a Black Fundy. No it is not the Baldwin’s church. My wife use to attend that church but her family left before I met her. I have attended both black and white fundy churches and I must admit the black ones don’t have as many of the crazy legalistic things going on. My problem was also more of how people are treated in them and pastoral abuse.

        1. Agreed Brother Fox

          I know of a few good IFB Churches in the inner city–my wife is from NY and there are a few even there.

        2. Agreed. It tends to be different with the non-White Fundamentalist groups. The White/Southern ones are usually bigger on the externals than the minorities (no facial hair for guys, no pants for women, and no long hair for guys). Of those three, my former pastor was big on no pants for women and no long hair for guys. I actually left because I became convinced of the Calvinist perspective of viewing the Bible and because I saw the value of the Presbyterian method of baptism and church government. I still love the people at my former church, but I don’t think I can step foot inside there without being lovebombed or having to explain to them that I don’t view the Pope as the Vicar of Christ. 😯

          The other major precipitator for my leaving was discipline. I was rarely put on it, but I saw others and how they were abused. My sister was the cake for me. Now my cousin is being soured because of how she chooses to go about dating a church youth (who happened to be my roommate at BJU my first semester there). They’ve decided to put them on discipline if they don’t go through with it the exact way my pastor wants them to. I’m glad I’m not there anymore with an obligation (from even my own family) to keep my mouth shut. Because it wouldn’t have happened. I’m glad I’m in SC now and have all the distance removed from them. They can’t make my life harder than it is by calling one of their own and bullying me here to keep my mouth shut. It’s that kind of nonsense that led me to leave THEIR brand.

        3. I left fundamentalism and couldn’t be happier. Everytime I tried to justify what was going on I knew that I was lying to myself. Church disipline is a joke in Fundy churches. It is more about embarassing the individual and not embracing them with the love of Christ. The best example of this is when a girl has to come before the church to apologize for getting pregnant. Everyone knows what she did was wrong why do I need an apology from her. I never understood the purpose, outside of shaming her, of this. Church disipline is suppose to draw the person back to Christ not to have them follow the pastors orders. I hate that this is what church disipline has came to. This website has been a blessing because I now know that I am not alone in my beliefs that the Fundy church has lost it way.

        4. Bro. Fox: Thank you for what you said about church discipline. Where’s the restoration, especially for the single mothers in your example? For that matter, why aren’t the baby daddies also being similarly disciplined? Church discipline isn’t discipline at all, but a shame-fest. Adults who are called for this so-called “discipline” can simply walk away from the church, so I suspect the ones who really suffer the most from it are young people who have nowhere else to break away and get real help with their situations.

    1. Did anyone ever see the children’s book called Olive? I don’t know who publishes it, but Olive is a little orphan who gets adopted by a Fundy family. I remember the mom has to sew her some dresses so she won’t have to wear pants anymore, and the other little girl in the family says something like, “I’m glad I have my hair long. God says women shouldn’t cut their hair,” and Olive feels sad because she has a short hair cut.

      I came across this book when I was babysitting one time … amazing how not-subtle the indoctrination can be sometimes ….

        1. Poor Olive. . She may have been better off as an orphan. LOL. I have to google that book now. Sounds hysterical (sad, but funny).

  8. Wow, I did laugh alot reading that. I found your website yesterday. I have to admit that I would consider myself a fundamentalist of sorts in its historic sense. I believe in the unalterable fundamentals of the Gospel, but I do agree that unfortunately there have been many sinful attitudes and actions blamed on “keeping the holiness of God” within the overarching bubble of Fundamentalism. That is very unfortunate, and yet we should not be surprised that there are fleshly men, even in Christian circles, whatever they might be.
    On the other hand, I am dumbfounded at how hurt some of you must have been by these churches, schools and men. The amount of time that you spend to relive these unbiblical attitudes and actions is mind boggling. The nature of all of us when we are hurt by a movement or world view is to be reactionary and throw the baby out with the bathwater. But instead, we are to be looking to Christ, regardless of others, and molding our lives to be like Him by His grace. God is balanced. His character is perfect in every way. He is a just judge yet a loving Savior.
    In that sense, it seems ironic that a movement that has been so hurtful would be a pastime that you would spend much time thinking about and writing on. Wouldn’t it be better to forget those who have failed us and look to our Savior who “will never leave us or forsake us.”
    I grew up in a church that, I believe, inadvertently promoted legalism through strong outward standards. I know where you are coming from, but I can’t let that background completely ruin what God has for my life. Instead, I need to see the error and compare it to the truth of God’s Word and start living in line with Him. This is true healing; because God promises joy to all of those who are under the Law of Grace. And then we can ultimately fulfill our role in life and eternity which is to “praise the glory of His grace.”

    1. Wouldn’t it be better to forget

      If only it were that easy. (It isn’t)

      But since many of us have no choice but to remember, isn’t it better to remember with shared laughter than solitary tears?

      I think it is.

      1. Darrell, I am not trying to judge you or anyone on this group. In fact, I believe I was hurt spiritually by those who focused so much on the outwards and not the heart. In saying that, my goal was to encourage all of us to make sure that we are not so focused on what happened to us that we do not move on and really enjoy the life of believer who can forgive and let God be the judge in these horrible circumstances. I do understand the fun in laughing and sharing. I never meant any disrespect or sarcasm by any of my comments. They were only meant to encourage.
        As far as those who found my name funny or “fundamentalist,” I really don’t know what else to call myself. I believe that is what every believer should be. It is God’s Word, and it is amazing the Creator of the universe wants to communicate to us and that is the way he ordained for that communication to happen.
        Lastly, I apologize if I came across as harsh or unsympathetic. I am actually very sympathetic in my heart and mind for all those who have experienced what you have. You are not alone, by any stretch. Apparent legalism seems to be the biggest hurt in the believers life of those who grew up in the 80’s and 90’s in fundamentalism. To sum up all that I have said, I simply want you to know that forgiveness is healing and that I don’t care what a person would label themselves as long as they are actively pursuing a relationship with God who wants to be their friend and faithful companion.

        1. Biblicist: OK, you’re real and you’re not John. Good.

          Getting out of Fundamentalism isn’t easy. Even nearly 15 years out, I’m surprised how much of a mess I’m still left cleaning up. I’m not saying I don’t enjoy my freedom (I certainly do!), but sometimes I still have to stop and face something messy that Fundamentalism left in my life. I’m pretty tired of it, and I’m very grateful to Darrell and the others for being there.

          I know the whole “why don’t you just move on?” really sounds good, but it doesn’t work that way. That was what many of us were told while we were still in Fundamentalism when things went south. No working things out, no real learning from the experience, just… move on. My husband and I had to cut all communication with a former friend because he refused for years to deal with some problems he had caused for my husband. He thought that he could just shut up a while, let things blow over, and he could go back to how things were… which meant treating Hubby badly just like before. I put a stop to that.

          Also, it’s not just “legalism” for many of us. For some, for example, leaving Fundamentalism is leaving behind the increased risk of sexual harassment (or worse). I’ve had several friends who were harassed and/or molested in Fundamentalism, and they had nowhere to turn for help. Others have left because of physical violence at so-called “children’s homes” which are little more than concentration camps.

          Those who left because of legalism and/or bad doctrine got out lucky, AFAIC. Even though I also suffered some sexual harassment, I still consider myself as one who got out relatively easy. There are too many sexual abuse and domestic violence survivors who cannot say the same, who were abandoned and condemned by the churches where the abuse occurred.

        2. LMcC, I could not get a reply button on your response to my response to Darrell. I really appreciate your post. It does kind of clear some things up for me. I think I was thinking along certain lines when you and probably others are at a totally different level of hurt, pain and offenses that were committed on you under the guise of “fundamentalism.” I apologize for my ignorance and probably can now see where you are coming from.
          Your other post is right on about laughing at the funny things in our pasts. My motto is, “I can either laugh or cry, and I would rather laugh.”
          Thank you for your insight.

        3. There’s a certain point past which the reply button disappears. Dunno why.

          Anyhoo, welcome to the zoo. 🙂

        4. Someone (and I truly wish I could remember who said it) once likened growing up fundy to being raised by wolves. You may look and try to act normal but you just don’t get it most of the time. Anybody who entered a fundamentalist church before the age of 10 is going to have a very warped view of the real world and the longer you were in the harder it is to realign your view. Most of us were taught that we had the truth and others didn’t and that there was a long list of things good xtains didn’t do, such as drinking beer, smoking, going to movies, dancing, playing cards, kissing boys (unless you’re married to him) ect… ad nauseum. You’re expected to be at church on Sundays and Wendays and any other time the doors are open. You’re not supposed to hang out with non-xtain kids, unless you’re witnessing to them (because they will bring you down instead of you bringing them up) and god help you if you even think about dating a guy who isn’t fundy. “If you wouldn’t marry him, you shouldn’t date him.” and “Be not unequally yoked.” get tossed in your direction. And if you want to get involved with politics; well all you really need to know is that GOP really stands for “God’s Own Party” and vote accordingly.
          Then, somehow, you find yourself standing outside the church, looking at all the rules and limits and BSery and thinking, “This is wacked.” And just like that you realize that you can’t live that way any longer, the confusion and contradictions are taking their toll. So you leave.
          And then what? You find yourself in a new world where the seem to be no clear rules or at least none you understand. Where you’re no longer a “babe in Christ” but an adult and expected to act like one. But (and here’s the kicker) you’re not sure how. When your whole life, you’ve been taught how and what to think and say and do, thinking and acting for yourself doesn’t come easy and it can scare the hell out of you at first. And you’re terrified of making mistakes because in fundyland mistakes mean you’ve sinned and you’re now a backsliding reprobate. You suddenly have to learn to see the shades of grey and accept the fact that (even with God’s help) you will never be perfect. You have to learn to forgive yourself and others and accept that the non-fundys in your life (my husband is a perfect example) are never going to understand what you went through and find a lot of it damned near impossible to believe.
          Which is why I am so thankful for Darrel, this site and others like it. It let’s me know I’m not alone, I’m not crazy and I’m not the only one. Laughter is a very good healer.

        5. @ Phatchick
          Thanks for that post, explains my childhood and escape very well. The confusion, the nonfundy husband, just when I think I’m totally beyond BS, I get on autopilot and “submit” to a person in authority who very well may be completely wrong about an issue at hand. Then I think about it and seeth at myself 2 hours later, ashamed of my inability to think clearly on my feet WHEN things are happening…..anyway, thanks for the post.

        6. It’s easy to get a person out of Fundamentalism. It’s much more difficult to get Fundamentalism out of a person. Every person is molded by their experiences.

        7. Phatchick, i think you just hit the nail on the thumb, when you talked about Christians (NOT just Fundamentalists) being unable to cope in an environment where they actually have to think for themselves, which a VERY dangerous thing for a Christian to do. I think your post said it much better than I ever could and a love the comparison with being raised by wolves. That captures my own experience perfectly. I grew of in Protestant Northern Ireland, in an environment which was governed by all sorts of Laws and Taboos (mostly taboos). My own unfortunate tendency towards Independant Thinking was vigorously squashed very early on, and I was frequently labelled a Trouble-Maker. so I learned to toe the line, in order to fit in. but I knew deep in my heart that I didn’t, but did’t see any viable alternative. When I got to University, I had major problems reconciling what I had been taught with what I was learning in Science and the fact that a lot of the Big Things, that had been so important were really quite irrelivant. In other words my head was smaked up hard against Reality, and it HURT. It took me a long time to recover from the culture shock. Having a number of close Christian friends, who had a different upbriging from me was a great help. I have recently read a very interesting book recently by a guy called Michael Spencer called “Mere Churchianity”, aimed at people who are p***ed off with playing Church but don’t want to give up on Jesus or His Gospel. It rattled my cage a bit, but it also resonated with me.

        8. @Phatchick – Well said. This summarized my experience well: “And you’re terrified of making mistakes because in fundyland mistakes mean you’ve sinned”. Exactly.

    2. I just got an e-mail with a similar theme from my brother . . . could he have followed me here? I try to keep this place a secret from the fightin’ fundies in my life. I was thinking about sending my brother’s “admonishemnt” to Darrell for all y’all to deconstruct for me.

      1. *screeches to a halt* Sarah, you have my attention.

        Maybe you should post it, or at least ask Darrell to repost for you in a new post or over on the FB forum. It’s one thing to poke fun of the weirder fundy generalities. It’s another to point out serious instances of religious manipulation and help out a friend who has been hurt by a family member. Speaking from experience, it hurts to have family members try to hurt you and try to drag you back for more harm when you know you’re doing the right thing, and even more so when they’re using Scripture against you. Some of us can see things with a more objective eye and can encourage you to hang on to what you know is right, or at least point out where you’re being manipulated.

        1. Thanks for the support, guys. Is this like the swat team/emergency network that intervenes if someone’s about to expose themselves to toxic levels of fundiness?

    3. This is group therapy where we find affirmation for all of the crazy we lived through; it’s a community where we can laugh, cry, and heal and it clears the air for us. And, it is needed. I have seen what stuffing down these experiences has done to some people who were very dear to me. It’s heart-wrenching. So, no. I don’t think this is a waste of time or energy. We’re all in different stages of healing, and many of us have found truly godly faith communities that make Jesus the center, and where we can unselfconsciously worship Him.

    4. Biblicist:

      Personally, I’m hoping you’re someone’s spoof. But just in case you’re not…

      One of the critical moves to make concerning healing from any form of spiritual abuse — including Fundamentalism — is breaking the secrecy of what went on. We speak out. Sometimes we’re dead serious, and sometimes we make fun of it, but we speak out. We are no longer going to submit blindly and helplessly to the isolation, the secrecy, the shadows. We’re bringing it to light. Light points out the problem and forces action. Ideally, we’d like for Fundamentalism to clean up its collective act… but if it did, it would no longer be Fundamentalism. (some of us would hope it would finally become a doctrinally sound movement.) If Fundamentalists choose to keep denying their problems and causing others harm as a result, then we hope the light we shine on it will help others avoid what we suffered.

      And to be honest, some of Fundamentalism is genuinely funny. Some of it isn’t really funny, but laughter is healing so we point it out for what it is and laugh.

    5. Biblicist

      Your’s is the one of best comments I have ever read here. Kind and considerate, while bodly making a point not shared by the masses here. Bravo.

      Sadly, it was treated with characteristic scorn and ridicule, by some (not all–Darrell answered logically).who are as overly-judgemental and cruel as anyone in fundamentalism. 🙁

      We don’t have to be so dismissive and caustic guys.

      1. I must have missed something because I saw no response to Biblicist that remotely “treated [it] with characteristic scorn and ridicule.” The folks who responded were honest and forthright but in no sense were they caustic! Somebody seems a bit on the sensitive side today (or is it everyday?).

        1. I agree with you, but we ex-pat fundies have to remember that the definition of kind/nice in fundyland is submissive to the Powers that Be. It’s really sad. I study the history of evangelicalism and I really want to believe that fundies have just lost their way. I’m just not sure. I don’t think they ever knew the Way. . . .

        2. We must also ignore the problems in Fundyland that caused many of us to get out in the first place. Submission to the PTB isn’t enough. We have to participate in the denial, and allow the PTB to say that we really did leave because of the color of the carpet or something similarly weak and stupid. If we left because we weren’t seeing truly Christ-like behavior, or we were lied to about our educations, or we saw things like domestic violence and sexual abuse being covered up, that can never be made known. 🙄

        1. Susan’s post!? No way! I thought it was going to be my post that tied someone’s skivvies in a knot. (I have a talent for that.)

          Let’s get something straight for the Fundamentalist lurkers: I’m not a mean or hateful person. If anything, I’m too soft-hearted for my own good, and Fundamentalists have used that against me very viciously so that’s now reserved for the ex-Fundies who are still struggling through the aftermath of coming out of their personal nightmares.

          I am, however, unusually direct and will tell it like it is. Some people have a problem with that. Sorry, don’t take it personally. I’ve tried to “tone it down” but the truth about Fundamentalism is offensive no matter how wimpy and flowery I (or anyone else) can make the language. So I’m just blunt.

        2. I suppose it was disrespectful because it referred to our collective experience as “crazy.” Mmm.

        1. It took me a couple minutes to realize who your comment above was aimed at Smith, but when I did, I couldn’t help but laugh out loud a little bit.

          I, too, wondered what he was implying by his use of the pronoun “we”…lol.

        1. Yes, Ian is in fact John who is back with yet another name and this time using his wife’s e-mail address.

          What he doesn’t know is that I only removed his ability to comment for a couple days just to give everyone a chance to settle down and the name change wasn’t really necessary for him to comment again.

          But, by all means, if he wants to feel sneaky I’m happy to let him.

          It is a little scary how he can’t stay away from this place, though.

        2. Darrell, Darrell, Darrell. You know a true Fundy can’t stay away from the people he loves… to tear down. 😉 His crew must be obeying a little too well or something. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

        3. You know, for all the trouble John is going through to comment…using false names and the whole-nine-yards, I think there is some kind of pathology at work here. Just think, he is responsible for the souls in his “flock”? Not only does it illustrate dishonesty at work, but the a heart of deciet as its foundation! WHY, dude, are you so obcessed about those of us on SFL? Especiall with Darrell? The only thing I can think of is that you can’t get under his skin and buggs the living sssssshhhhaving cream out of you! The problem is dude, you’re pathology is an easy read…the words you choose, the cadance, your structure…there’s no “Where’s Waldo?” with you!

          Off topic everyone, but here’s a question that just came to mind: IF “Where’s Waldo” and “Where in the World isCarmen San Diego?” were to marry and have children, could you find them? (cymbals crashing…the sound of crickets)

        4. @Smith that’s a valid question, but I sure hope it doesn’t get answered, cause the obnoxious replies to those questions don’t actually answer, and just irritate more.

        5. Wow. Just wow. I might get an earful but I actually feel for him. I really do.

          I think this helps further another theory I am working on…….SFL is as addictive as crystal meth. Doesn’t rot the teeth so much but none of us can stay away! 😆

        6. Coming soon: Posts from Ivan, Johannes, Jan, Jean, Juan, Gianni, Janos, Janek, Juwan, and Sean.

        7. Actually I was away for a few weeks.
          Checked in and was amused at how often others were accused of being me and thought I would do a brief experiment.

          Accordingly, I posted under TWO obvious monikers –both just variations of my name, for two days. (and under an obvious e-mail address also, no attempt to be “sneaky” ….and I knew Darrell couldn’t resist outing me again-love ya DD )

          The quest was to see how long it took for people to pick up rocks and start slinging at someone without the baggage my name brings……
          …if someone could post the same thoughts and questions I have without the baggage and be treated decently.

          The results?


          It was proven again that any outspoken athiest, homosexual, liberal or foul mouthed commentator is accepted, approved and sometimes applauded here at SFL.
          -and that any sure fire Fundamentalist—or one appearing to maybe lean that way– will quickly be insulted, assaulted and ridiculed for offering any differing of opinion.

          ~To give credit where credit is due, there were those who did actually civily conduct conversations with me on subjects in a Christ-like manner. Those who previously could/would not when they knew it was me.
          One in particular-I am looking at you Don . Bravo and gratitude to you for proving me wrong about you.

          And for the record, Darrells “preacher boy” posts have been mostly spot on and some of the best SFL yet.

          Thank you all for your participation….you may now return to your searches for me behind any newcomer 🙂

          I’ll check back again in a few days.

        8. Dear John,

          Welcome back my friend. Missed you here getting everyone all riled up.
          It took all of 2 posts under your pseudo-name Ian for me to figure out that:

          1) Ian was a fundy and
          2) Ian was you

          Best regards,

          An outspoken liberal atheist :mrgreen:

        9. You all should be thanking my little Johnny! He is a hero. He took pity on all of you liberals and gave you a test that most of you didn’t pass. Testing your character was an act of “tough love” that my Johnny got from me growing up.

          I can’t tell you how many times I’d test his character! I would write letters to him from Satan Clause with promises of candy and presents if he just wrote me back; I would leave notes in his lunch that told him not to stand up and pray before eating his cheese sandwich; and I’d call him from the neighbor’s house and pretend I was his Sunday School teacher and tell him to memorize his verses in the NIV . . . hee hee hee! Of course, my little Johnny never did! He passed his tests but you liberals and homo-athiests couldn’t pass his. For shame!

          Well, I’m just glad to have him back home again for a few days (until he goes undercover again). I was the one that actually suggested his new name “Ian.” AND I helped him get into his costume and everything. He’s still trying to get bits of glue off his face from the fake mustache, but I told him even though it’s the world web of intranet, you had to get in character. What a fun time! He’s still talking in his fake accent. So thrilling!

          It’s all been too much for me. So before I tuck him into bed, we’re going to pick out a new name for next time. This has been such a bonding time for us – I’m almost glad there’s a liberal site out there that revolves around the fun turkey stuffing that people like.

        10. Amanda – Thanks hun 😎

          But, you are proving John’s misguided point. You are accepting, approving and applauding an outspoken liberal atheist. 😆

          I just realized that even when John rebukes and attempts to correct us, he alliterates!!!


          Well done John.

        11. @Scorpio: lol true enough. Guess I kind of broke my Don’t Feed the Trolls policy. Drat. Of course, given that I visited a “liberal” mainline church with a pants-wearing female pastor (and white piano!) this morning, John would probably put me in the same category as you, too. 😉

    6. Re: baby with the bathwater, what is the baby? Fundamentalism or one’s relationship with God? To many of us, the latter is the baby and the former is the bathwater.

  9. Oh, and the Seinfeld line where Jerry says “it was a wise choice to hitch my star to his wagon” about George Constanze never seemed to be more fitting/appropriate than this topic.

  10. We Catholic’s don’t have to worry about this. 😉

    Seriously though when I was back in fundyland I once knew a Pastor’s wife who did not fit the norm. She was fun loving and joking and wore tennis shoes and told everyone she wasn’t traditional. She never lectured us on anything but she was always there to listen if we needed her. She was a lot of fun. She would at times outshine her husband but he didn’t seem to care..but now I wonder if her he ever got ‘outside’ grief because of her.

    1. Ah, yes, homeschooling. Not only must she be willing to homeschool, she must do it militantly. And she must be prepared to make sure the other mothers know that she loves her children more than they do, and that her children are getting a far better education.

      1. I hate when I hear this that homeschooled children are so much better than others. I have yet to be impressed by someone that is homeschooled. It seems just a bunch of self-righteous people one upping someone.

        1. I have yet to be impressed by someone that is homeschooled.

          That’s only because you haven’t met me.

          I’m pretty impressive. 😉

        2. I was homeschooled as well, and while I’m pretty impressive also, my education was abysmal. !
          D, I’m assuming you were homeschooled because you grew up on the mission field. That’s a far cry from being homeschooled because everyone in the public school is gay and pregnant (not sure how that’s possible at the same time, but that’s what my parents thought).
          My three school age boys certianly are thriving in our local public school, although I believe that has more to do with parenting than anything else: so you never know, they could still grow up to be mass murderers or IFB preachers and break our hearts. 😛

        3. I live outside the US and my kids were home schooled. One won a full scholarship to a non-Christian university. So while homeschooling may not be the best for some it has worked for my family.

        4. I was homeschooled, but that was mostly because my parents thought that the local schools sucked academically (they did have a smidgen of religious protectionism as well). It didn’t seem to hurt my standardized test scores at all; socially, though, I still suffer a bit after a number of years… It had to help, though, that my mom has a masters in education and was formerly a public school teacher.

        5. I was, as some others on here, educated at home. It is what the parents make it, nothing more and nothing less.

        6. A lot of it depends on the homeschooler. I’ve met a number of homeschooled kids (usually the children of religious parents who don’t want their kids “contaminated” by the world) who are appalling lacking in science and higher math. I’ve also met some really good ones. A good friend of mine and his wife homeschooled their daughter until she was in second grade (she was disabled and unable to handle regular classed) and she was one of the smartest kids I’ve ever known. It might help to ad that my friends weren’t fundys and they just wanted their kid to get a good education, in or out of the classroom.

        7. It depends on who is teaching you at home.

          My mom homeschooled (all of) us: she was very very disciplined, which helped a LOT. We got a pretty good education and great thinking skills. It was just the social skills that lacked, and that wasn’t her fault.

        8. I was also homeschooled for two years when I lived overseas. I wasn’t trying to offend anyone but I have always felt that I was looked down on because I was the only person not being homeschooled in our IFB church.

        9. Not all homeschoolers are badly educated. Both of my daughters did very well outside of fundy land when it comes to education. They graduated from genuine accredited universities with high honors and highest honors respectively, and one of them is a public school teacher. Of course, we deviated from the fundy-approved curriculum (we used Sonlight) and we were out and about volunteering in the community and rubbing shoulders with non-fundy believers.

  11. My parents sends my 19yo sister to summer camp for the past 3 years for the expressed purpose of picking up a mate. They believe she is getting up there in years. Homeschooling and going to a church of 30 members, makes the fundy pool shallow pickings for a mate. They haven’t thought of trying to advertise an ad like this in say, the Sword of the Lord. Horrifies me. They want to pick a mate for her, and by their standards, she will get a wife beater for sure.

    Another sister courted an approved boyfriend when she was 13 and he was 18. He was a preacher boy and told her she was getting heavy. She about went anorexic trying to please him. I was furious with him and my parents already felt like she was somewhat under his authority.

    They married. And THANK GOD after many years, they are both out of fundyland.

        1. Yup. I wore one until I was 54. I play piano and have done so in church for 40 years. But, at this stage of the game the birthing hips are moot.

        2. Yep. I’m 28 & single. It’s no joke in fundyland. I am the “difficult” single in my church. I refused to be set up with anyone from Fundy U, especially a preacher boy. I’m a disgrace. 😉

      1. Yeah. all except me were married when they were teenagers. They can’t think why some guy hasn’t swept her off her feet yet. I dunno, maybe because she looks closer to 40 in her frumpy clothes, and long stringy hair. Maybe because she’s been homeschooled her whole life, socially akward and has never known anyone her own age and all her friends are over 50? frightens me that they think she is ready for marriage.

  12. “But since many of us have no choice but to remember, isn’t it better to remember with shared laughter than solitary tears?”

    On a very serious note, thank God this site is here. Every morning I check out the new post and eve day I find a little bit of healing from all the craziness…knowing I’m not alone and can laugh instead of cry and be with others in this kind of fellowship is amazing..
    Thank you Darrell

    1. “On a very serious note, thank God this site is here. Every morning I check out the new post and eve day I find a little bit of healing from all the craziness…knowing I’m not alone…”

      Agreed! There are so few people that can relate to the fundy experience. Most of the people I’m around aren’t even Christian, so I can’t even begin to explain to them my 20 yrs in fundyland. I need this blog so I don’t have to keep a major component of my life internalized.

  13. The 4 year degree if for those of us extra stubborn “hussies” who need to learn enough submission to finally get called up to the big leagues and find a suitable preacher boy husband…2 years are for those already sweet dignified submissive girls who’s daddies told them they must attend a bible college and get a degree before they marry their highschool sweethearts…

  14. A few years ago was my first experience was a preacher boy, (I went to BJU -twitch-) boyfriend(then, now fiance) asked me to go dinner with a PB and his gf. (Fiance loves being nice to everyone lol), well at dinner PB’s gf didn’t say much so I asked her opinion on something such as ‘what are you two doing tomorrow?’ she replied something about hitting the snack shop. Then her PB bf chimed in with “Uh, excuse me, I’m the man in this relationship. Remember who is charge.” Well my family is not from fundyland so this SHOCKED ME. Then she proceeded to AGREE WITH HIM, and asked forgiveness for being “unsubmissive”. Fiance was opened-mouthed staring (he is a amazing man and gentleman). I quick turned to fiance and told him I had to leave. I left the dining common, then PB proceeded to ask fiance if I HAD PERMISSION TO LEAVE. I categorize this as one of the weirdest nights of my life lol.

    1. 😯 😯 😯 😯

      I think I would have had to do something suitably shocking, like projectile barf on the PB right then and there. I felt ill reading that, and I hope that someone else could get to that girlfriend and get some sense into her before it was too late.

    2. What an egotistical, power-crazed, dictatorial, jerk. And the sad thing is it will probably breed and reproduce. I believe this puts it in the top 5 of those running for the Poster Boy for Retroactive Birth Control. 🙄

    3. Dear me, LCS! My sister tells me a very similar story. She was at the dinner table when it occurred. She tried so hard not to laugh. I would have tried hard not to make the guy feel like the lech he was. A similar story happened to me close to the end of my sophomore year. Except that the guy turned around and asked me for affirmation. I told him “If you need to demand respect, you probably don’t deserve it.” I then excused myself and went to my room. NASTY!! It’s so prevalent there! 😡

      1. “If you need to demand respect, you probably don’t deserve it.”

        That is very true.
        You won’t get it that way, either. You may shut people up temporarily, but that’s what respect is.

        These guys are the poster boys for how to recognize a future wife-beater. Probably not all of them will end up being abusers (well, not with physical violence), but they fit the profile perfectly.

        1. Drat!!
          I meant to type, “You may shut people up temporarily, but that’s NOT what respect is.”

      2. @ Daniel Madera
        Yes indeed your sister was there (hehe!), we definitely discussed the happenings in our room that night!

        As my man always says “A real man never needs to tell others he is one.” 🙂

        1. @All: thanks for the affirmation. Wasn’t really seeking it, but I’d be lying if I said it doesn’t feel cool. 😛

          @”LCS:” NO WAYY! I thought it was you, missy!! And I knew (by the sound of it) that it was your brave man in that conversation!! YAAAY!! It has always been a pleasure being of service to you and your (WOW – soon-to-be) husband!! I GOTTA know: are you still being hounded by the parents? Because we can definitely deal with that. I still won’t stand by while that kind of abuse is going on. 😀

          BTW: My sisters are infinitely grateful to you and your family for your hospitality. 😀

      1. @ Daniel, Haha after reading over this website, I finally decided to post a fundyland story. 🙂 No worries, the crazy parents have officially disowned my “way-ward, sin-filled’ man (their words, DEF not mine). We continue to pray for them though! The Lord knows their hearts and that they need help. I’ll explain more on fb, currently fasting from it bc I’m wasting too much time there! Haha, but Monday I’ll message you.

        @Smith, actually FI and I have had several run ins such as this. He had one guy tease him b/c I initiated half of our phone calls that he was “whipped”, and that I must be a controlling woman! LOL

        1. NO WAYYY!! Just saw this!! I THOUGHT IT WAS YOU!! LOL!! This is getting wayyyy too strange … ROFL!! 😀

  15. Amen! This site is really the only break I get from my battles with the damage left by Fundyland. It’s not something to just forget, sweep under the rug, and pretend it never happened. It’s something to deal with daily in one form or another.

    It’s simultaneously sad and refreshing to know I’m not alone. It’s sad because we’ve all paid a high price for what we thought was the truth, and refreshing because this is one place where we don’t have to explain or be afraid we’ll be seen as crazy.

    1. Also, how can we FORGET the false teachings of the IFB and just move on when our closest relatives express their disapproval of us every time we talk to them? Or how can someone forget when all their school friends and all their college friends and all the folks they used to go to church with are ALL fundies and most are now shunning them? We ARE moving on into the glorious grace and freedom of Christ, but for some of us, it’s a complete break with EVERYTHING and nearly EVERYONE they’ve ever known – it hurts!!! That hurt needs to be comforted; those people need to be encouraged and upheld not scolded for being sad. (Or for being mad either. I recall Jesus being pretty angry at the money-changers.)

      1. In that sense, it seems ironic that a movement that has been so hurtful would be a pastime that you would spend much time thinking about and writing on. Wouldn’t it be better to forget those who have failed us and look to our Savior who “will never leave us or forsake us.”

        Kinda reminds one of Elihu in Job 32. He had not been through what Job had suffered but he was an expert and knew what Job needed to do and how he should feel about it all. The more things change the more they remain the same.

        1. Don, I ask for your forgiveness if I seemed heartless. I did not mean to come across that way, but I think my poor writing skills communicate things to others that is not my intent. I don’t think we can change our feelings, and I have no idea what you have been through. You are right; it is easy to see others issues and make a quick judgement call. I am trying to be more like Christ in that. He saw people’s needs not their faults. I will pray that God meets your needs whatever they may be.

        2. @ B
          No worries mate. Your responses speak volumes regarding your heart and character. LMcC put it best, each of us have experienced the ugliness of Fundyland, some have had it worse and some got out without mortal wounds but all have been affected . All of us have experienced spiritual abuse, emotional manipulation and betrayal. Others have been scarred more deeply with physical abuse, sexual abuse, emotional abuse… all from those who present themselves as “God’s representives.” But we all have by the wonderful, bountiful Grace of God been awakened to the Cult of Fundie-ism.

          Part of our therapy around here is the ability to take an iconic piece of Fundie practice and bash it, smash it and shoot holes in it… and for the most part we are able to do that in the frame work of attacking the ideals, dogmas and perverted system that allows it to happen. We sometimes do lash out at the fundie empire builders, pseudo popes and fundie cult leaders.

          We are very watchful and quick to defend against any Fundie intrusion as well. Sometimes that takes an all out firefight. But we, we happy few, have banded together and gather here to share our experiences, heal our wounds, laugh, and cry, and gather round one another when they are hurting and defend one another when unjustly attacked. I can honestly say there there are many on here I feel a kinship with and count as friends (though I have never met them in person I still have sweet fellowship wth them here.) I’ll go so far as to say I feel closer to many on here than most I have attended “church” with.

          As LMcC said welcome to the Zoo. I appreciate your humbleness and look forward to your input around here. 😎

    2. LMCc and Pastor’s wife…I am amening your amening of my amen..lol
      The advice of “suck it up” and “get over it” doesn’t cut it..couple that with the shame for being “negative or bitter” and not always having a sweet submissive smile on our face while the abuse is being dished out it is not gonna work.
      When I left the IFB world the shunning that took place was beyond anything I have ever experienced…( I would share here but I am still dealing with the fear of what would happen if I really told the truth and lifted the carpet on all the filth that was swept up under it)and so I sat and wondered if I was absolutely crazy. Try explaining it to someone not in that world…they don’t get it..so where do you process?? This is a healing “safe” place to share…with all you other wonderful beautiful broken nut jobs who totally “get it”
      Love love love this thread.

      1. S’OK. ((((I am His beloved))))

        You’ve got time to deal with what’s under that rug. No rush. Every time I think I’ve cleared it out, something else makes its presence known. It doesn’t help when the friends and family members who didn’t cut you off do everything in their power to get in the way of your attempts to deal with those thing, like what I’m dealing with now. We “broken nut jobs” need each other, and we’ll get through all this mess together.

        1. LMCc /Pastor’s Wife and anyone else who might be interested…
          ..I have been wrestling with this for awhile..considering putting a lazer focus on my blog…a healing place for those detoxing from fundamemtalism..like this but with a different twist..more of a serious place where we can tackle deep issues of abuse, hurt and pain from a recovering fundamentalist view point.( Do NOT want to take from this blog..it would be much much different…there is no place like home and this blog is HOME)
          I don’t want to do it alone though..would love for some of you amazing hearts to guest post and share your stories, your journey..don’t need a 1-2-3 formulaic post..a raw, real post of your journey and the questions and pain you restle with..
          If there are any of you willing to share or be part of this please email me at


          I would be blessed if any of you would be part. ( Including the most brilliant Darrell)

      2. I’m so sorry! I want to give you a big hug, because I was at HAC around that time and there was so much dirt that was hidden. I’m pretty sure you left during my last semester there (My last semester was the fall of 2009.) There are just so many things that happened.

  16. I have no idea who John/Ian is for the record. It sounds like he has stirred things up in the past. That is not the goal of mine nor the example of Christ.
    Pastor’s wife, I did not mean to scold anyone for the hurt or sadness that they feel. Actually, my intent was the very opposite. I don’t underestimate the pain and suffering caused by men who have acted in their own egotistical ways, yet, looking at Christ, we see him forgiving those who had wrongfully put him through torture, abuse, ridicule and eventually death and asking His Father to forgive them. That is the example we all have in whatever hurtful situations to forgive vertically to God since we can’t forgive those who have not asked for it. We give it to God and let Him deal with it.
    I hope that at least clears up any ill will that may have come across in my original post. I have none for anyone on this board. I think it is fun to laugh at some of the silly things of fundamentalism (and there are many). I hope we can agree on that.
    RobM, I have no idea what I said to offend you, but I apologize and ask your forgiveness. Believe me, I have lost many times and have probably had poopy pants back in the day; so I guess that name could work.:)

    1. Thanks for clarifying, Biblicist! I appreciate your spirit. I don’t think I saw any specific “ill will” in your post necessarily; I was just trying to clarify why it’s hard for some of us to just move on. I TRULY want my life to be about serving Christ, forgiving and loving. But for me, I do need to talk out loud about some of the false teachings/assumptions/traditions that I used to think were in Scripture but actually aren’t! For example, decade-long friends are accusing my husband of not even preaching from the Bible anymore; talking it out with others helps clarify for me that, no, I’m not rejecting the fundamentals of the faith; I’m actually trying to more fully represent the Gospel.

      1. Yeah, thanks and welcome, Biblicist!

        For some of us, naming the malarkey is part of moving on, and it’s great for those of us who can move on together. It’s a big help to come here and realize that something that happened at Fundy U or XYZ church wasn’t in our imaginations, or that the gut feeling that something that was allegedly “Biblical” wasn’t right after all. That little bit of validation kick-starts the healing process.

      2. Cool, I am glad we could clarify that. I am actually a youth pastor and love to understand what we can do better in our churches to love and be biblical and ultimately to be like Christ. I can understand partially what your husband is going through. I will pray that God will strengthen him, spiritually and emotionally, in order that he might serve the Lord with all His heart, soul, and mind, regardless of what other think or say. I know my wife and how she reacts when there is some negativity said about me or the ministry I am working with. You want to defend him with all your strength and that is great:) But don’t let those people dim the glory of God in your eyes. He is perfect when men are everything but that. This has been very encouraging for me and trust the same for you.

        1. Biblicist: I like your posts… I hope that this site will help you become better at your job.

          I don’t write often on here, but I do lurk. I was in a “work, work, work” fundamental church and was very unhappy – primarily over the soul-winning emphasis. You see, I am terribly shy. I forced myself to go out with the church because I was guilted into it, and nearly suffered a nervous breakdown. I had to stop going for my sanity, but was ostracized. Since I wasn’t “going soul-winning”, I was ostracized. I had no friends, and was not allowed to use my talents to serve God because I wouldn’t go soul-winning.

          I still have times of feeling utterly worthless as a church member because I have such a tough time in this area. Yet, there are members who committed adultery and other heinous sins; they are fully accepted and loved by the others.

          Even typing this post brings back feelings of intense shame at confessing to this, the worst of all IFB crimes.

        2. ((((Guilt Ridden)))) If I could come and give those shame feelings a much-needed kick away from you and run them out the door, I’d do it.

          There’s no shame in just being who you are and using the abilities you do have. Shame when being forced to act like something you’re not doesn’t belong to you, but was forced upon you by those who had no respect for you.

          My shy husband was also shamed by a Fundy for not being more outgoing, and all it did was close him up even more. You think after a while they’d figure out shaming doesn’t work. Oh, wait, that takes giving a rip about the people involved, so never mind. *grumble*

        3. Guilt Ridden…oh hugs from me too.
          I hear you and your pain. You are so accepted and loved…just for who you are. I am so glad you came out of hiding to share a piece of your heart here..you are in good company with amazing people who get it. You are not alone.

        4. @ Guilt Ridden
          It is testimonies like that the forges my anger agaisnt the Fundie movement. The system that forces everyone into the same mold and requires you to perform at a proscribed level in order to be accepted. It’s almost as if the Fundie system never read Ephesians 4 and what the gifts are for and that we are all ministers of the Gospel of Christ. God has given each of us different abilities and gifts for ministering. To force people into an area they are gifted for is spiritually criminal. (and Lord forgive me I have been guilty of being the judge of others regarding those things in my past.)

          Thank you for posting. By participating you are ministering and I appreciate it. 😎

        5. Guilt Ridden, it may sound trite, well I’m sure it probably does, but I just want to remind you, God made you shy. God gave you your unique personality and He can use it to specific ministry. We don’t all have all the gifts. Fundies try to make us all do XYZ in order to be accepted by Christ. But some of us would rather die than do any public speaking or go up to a stranger and start a conversation. It’s OK!

        6. Blessings upon all you who have written the comforting posts.

          It’s not like I do nothing; I tip generously and leave tracts; I support our missions program with thousands of dollars each year…

          With no family to support, I live frugally and am able to do these things, by the blessing of God (not that I am anything; all I have has been given to me by Him and because of Him)

          A friend and I were talking about this… he said that I should consider Matt 28:19-20 (the passage most often used to beat people up about soul-winning) is a command given to the church; after all, part 2 is baptizing converts and most IFB churches will not allow an individual to baptize – it is a church ordinance, they say. So, if part 2 is clearly to the churches, then the entire command is. This is the three-fold mission of the church. Now IHOP’s mission is to sell pancakes, but not everyone is a waiter/waitress; some are cooks; some are accountants; some keep books; some wash dishes; some are cashiers. Everyone helps fulfill IHOP’s mission in different ways. I have clung to that illustration.

          But years and years of “you aren’t right with God unless you are confronting someone in person with their need to be saved” have left a pretty deep scar that I still struggle with.

          Anyway, thanks for reading this, and thanks for the comfort!

        7. Guilt Ridden wrote:
          :Matt 28:19-20 (the passage most often used to beat people up about soul-winning) is a command given to the church; after all, part 2 is baptizing converts and most IFB churches will not allow an individual to baptize – it is a church ordinance, they say. So, if part 2 is clearly to the churches, then the entire command is. This is the three-fold mission of the church.”

          That is an excellent point. Thank you for sharing as it was very helpful to me.

          My former mannogid wrote his own soulwinning program and always harps on doing it his way – and only at the appointed times. etc.

          I am an extrovert, but have become totally turned off to this type of evangelism because of it being turned into such a chore and the constant guilt trips associated with it.

    2. I appreciate your christ centered response.

      We here at SFL are just extra sensitive to fundy antics. We have been burned badly and we have an internal radar that goes off when fundy language is spewed.

      However, we welcome your opinion and I think it is a good thing that you were able to get over your past experiences. Some of us here have a while to go before that happens though. We deal with pain every day that has come into our lives because of abusive fundamentalists.

      So, please be patient with us. We are still in the midst of the sanctification process.

        1. @Josh, for a minute, I thought you’d written “Sharper Iron” and I was confused. Guess my mind’s just not working well in the morning!

      1. To Guilt Ridden – I just wanted to throw my two cents in as well. Now that I’m out of fundy-ism, it seems to me that a lot of it is based on a certain kind of personality being the only thing acceptable… if someone is cheerful and outgoing and happy, why, that person is totally showing the fruits of the Spirit and must be right with the Lord! Never mind that plenty of nonChristians have happy personalities as well. I still remember a Catholic-hating IFB person I know describing a Catholic woman she knew as one of the rare Catholics out there who is actually “saved”, ….because she is so happy all the time! That’s how she knew that this woman was “saved”, even though this Catholic woman never professed to be, as Catholics do not believe in event salvation the way fundies do.

        I see now ridiculous that is, but as a child, this mindset had me convinced that I would one day burn in hell for all eternity, because I do not have that personality and never will… I’m a total introvert and have no interest in being any other way. BTW, there’s nothing worse to me than having a knock at the door and having someone there trying to force their religion down my throat, so I’m fine with you not “soul winning” 😉 Have events, sponsor things that invite other people to come to YOU, fine… but this crap of going to people’s homes… most people HATE this. A nonbeliever I know has described this practice as something that just makes people hate God, and I think he’s onto something.

        Anyway, don’t let people make you feel bad about how God made you!

  17. Polished Shaft, I don’t think by any means I have gotten over my past. In fact, part of me looking on this website is for me to see what things I still hold to as biblical that are simply man’s ideas. I want to be like Christ. It is hard to know when your conscience is overactive or over sensitive to things it should not be. Thank you for your patience with me.
    Pastor’s wife and LMcC, thank you for your gracious spirits as well. I look forward to understanding the failures of the past so we can move on to the victories of tomorrow.

  18. I do remember a time when a fundy PB decided to walk over and chastise my then fiance now wife after chapel for something he felt she did during the service that showed a lack of respect for the Mog. I don’t remember what it was, it was silly and inconsequential to the point that I hadn’t noticed and I was sitting right next to her. The scary part was not how willing he was to “take a stand for Jeebus” but how fast he backed down when her “authority figure” asked him if he saw the ring on her finger, and told him that I was responsible for her behavior and he better never speak to her without asking for my permission again! 😈 She was more than willing to stand up for herself, I was just faster, and more cynical. The future wife beater couldn’t argue with me because I used his own sick philosophy again’ him.

  19. LMcC mentioned that in fundy land a woman’s life might as well be over if she is 25 and unmarried. This is sad but true. However, the pressure is no less oppressive for the guys. If he is a precherboy (shutter shutter), an evangelism major, wants to ever serve God in any sense, or is breathing; it is every man’s duty to find an ‘helpmeat’ as soon as possible weather he wants to or not.
    The assumption is all too often made in fundamentalism that until you are married, you are not complete (this is more verbalized when it comes to women however) – that somehow it is God’s undeniable will for every person on earth to marry.
    I know a few brothers and sisters in Christ who have no intention to marry, and I try to be an encouragement to them in the midst of all the Job-style friends trying to show them the error of their ways.

    Nobody is Biblically required to be married.
    Do people just skip over 1 Cor. 7?

    1. They don’t forget 1 Cor. 7. They just twist the living daylights out of it to make it say things that aren’t really there and ignore all the inconvenient stuff. There’s a real talent for turning verses about sexuality that effectively ban polygamy into an encouragement for marital rape and a lot of other malarkey.It’s a shame about that. In proper context, egalitarians like that chapter :mrgreen:

    2. PBs are encouraged, nay required in some venues, to be married for their own protection. It keeps the jezebels in the churches at bay (most of them anyway).

  20. Darrel, very good, but you should have written:

    “Pants Wearer’s, Bossy Woman, And Jezebel’s need not apply.”

    By this shall all men know that you are a fundy preacher, because you can’t use English.

  21. I miss what Reader Mo would say to this one. Especially since he coined “Help Meat”… which is totally in keeping with the sentiment of the hunting/stalking nature of today’s subject. 😎

      1. Nothing else has happened to him. 🙂 We’re busy with jobs and kids and trying to get some semblance of normalcy back to our lives. I know he doesn’t play here as much as he used to, because if he isn’t busy with tasks that need to be done, he’s probably sleeping – still pretty weak and tired a lot. But he’s good. Thanks for thinking of him and I’ll let him know he’s missed.

        1. I still pray for Reader Mo’s recovery, and you guys! I can’t wait till he’s able to be on here regularly mouthing off in his own way! 😉

  22. So I’ve been a lurker on here for some time, but I had to comment on this one. This brought back a flood of “fond” memories from my time at bju. The first one that came to mind was going to that little “social” where you meet your guidance counselors and mingle with other freshman. Well, this PB cornered me and started asking me a series of questions that def weren’t icebreakers. Then, he asked “and how is your relationship with your father?” Well, it wasn’t good, and that was the end of our conversation. We didn’t speak again, but he still gave me disapproving looks every time I saw him in the dining common.
    Also, I particularly hated being asked by someone I JUST met: “What has God been teaching you this week?” Especially when it was asked in a very demeaning tone to begin with. So anyway…. there’s one of my stories.

    1. Dear me, CD! That’s amazing! And it was encouraged my last year there (last year). In society I would hear people say “challenge people” with questions like that. I always thought it was amazingly condescending that (1) someone thinks it’s their prerogative to challenge me about my relationship with God and (2) (assuming #1 weren’t so condescending) they think they’re qualified for me to give them my life’s story. I would do it just to turn around and ask them what they meant by the question. By answering it, you disarm their “you’re just resentful of anyone challenging you” retort. And by following it up with pressing questions, you put them on the spot in a more painful (yet much needed) position of defending their sanctimony.

  23. I knew a PB for whom a woman with four years of study in the domestic arts was overqualified. He got his wife right out of high school. At 23 he met his future wife while picking up his younger brother at fundie high school. She was 17 at the time. Soon they were engaged. What a wonderful status symbol it was to wear her engagement ring to high school during her senior year, and to bring her future husband to the Junior-Senior Banquet. Those who objected to cradle robbing PB were seen as questioning god’s will. PB was handsome and had once been a star athlete and honor student at the same fundie high school. PB was also an assistant pastor at the church that met at the lead pastor’s house. PB was also subsidizing his income by working as a handyman, stocking shelves at Caldor’s and living rent free in his parent’s basement, so there would be no problem supporting their future family.
    They have been married for 20+ years now and have nine children. Two of her pregnancies almost killed her. But PB knew it was god’s will he have a large family and kept on planting his seed.
    He still pastors a small church where I suspect his family makes up the majority of the membership. I also know his parents, who gave the marriage a green light, have also subsidized PB life at the expense of their own retirement savings.
    In the eyes of my fundie family members, he is still a better man than me, because he is “saved” and I’m “an unsaved idiot”.

      1. I should have written more. He does own his own house. He brought a broken down place (with the help of his parents) at fixed it up. He is handy. But my main point, he took advantage of an emotionally damage young woman (I know her too), married her before she could experience the world and find herself. He knew what he wanted in a woman, someone he could easily control. He also should have not started his own family until he was more financial independent. I believe his parents helped him out because he has charisma and is handsome. He is their golden boy. He is also a preacher which is a status symbol for many fundie parents.
        But there is also some emotional blackmail involved, because if they don’t help him out then their grandchildren could go without. (Something many grandparents go through). His other siblings are all independent and have small families.
        He is not my brother, but the son of my mother’s best friend. So he is almost like family to my mother.
        As for me, I am an atheist (raised IFB); put myself through college, paid for my own house (my parents did give me some old furniture).
        In these difficult times, I did not look down people who seek help from their family. Maybe we need to return to the idea on multiple generations living in the same house (like many of our ancestors or people in other parts of the world) But this PB decided he wanted a large family, one he knew no could not afford on his own.
        And his wife does play the piano. 

  24. Oh boy…he’s your brother huh? Is he younger than you? Let’s see….
    1. He went for the much younger girl because she simply segued from Christian HS to marriage, therefore, she had no time to think for herself thus becoming a baby factory and concubine.

    2. I’m guessing they (all 11 of them?) live in the parent’s basement? (images of ‘The Wedding Singer’ come to mind’)

    3. The parent’s subsidize the income?…So, he has always had a safety net?

    4. His job: live the fantasy and illusion of of serving God and being a responsible adult. Her job: keep pumping out those kids.

    Mark, no, although I don’t know you I would say that the parent’s sense of value is gone amuck. I knew guys like this who are caught up in the IMAGE of something and fitting that image is more important than the reality of being. This kid is fulfilling the “will of God” (whatever that means…it’s all subjective for the most part) and that “will of God” meant fishing in the kiddie pool for a wife, working P/T while playing church P/T; living in the parent’s basement…therefore, playing house too. With that said, he is more concerned about an IMAGE than the reality of responsibility…I mean really, WHERE would be be without the parent’s stipend? Why are the parents enabeling this man? Why didn’t they make him grow up?

    No my friend, if you are gainfully employed and living on your own you are so far ahead of this guy regardless of the image he wishes to project. The “saved” part? How do they determine that? Because you didn’t say ‘the prayer’? Didn’t go to Fundy U? Don’t play church? If you’re not, God can and will bring it about in His time. In the meantime, thank God that you exercised the initiative that apparently someone else didn’t.

  25. Back in the early 1990’s I went on a Medical Mission team trip to Jordan and Egypt. All of us were medical professionals, except one. As any self respecting fundy mission team knows, we had to have one wanna be preacher boy, to serve as our Chaplain. We had not left NY’s Kennedy Airport, before his real intentions were made known. He figured the mostly female members of the team, would be like fish in a barrel for his “help meet” hunting. He shared with every member of the team at one time or another that it was “God’s will” that they date. 🙄 He never succeeded with his hunt.

    On the way home, the team stopped, as planned, in Israel for a few days to see the “Holy Land.” In Isreal, we had to go through security at another location have our luggage sorted there and go through metal detectors then take a shuttle bus over to the actual terminal. When we arrived in Israel (from Jordan) it was the reverse. Plane landed, we deplaned with luggage and all, onto a bus, took us to the security area, then to the terminal to leave. Sounds like it would take a long time but the process worked very well. Yet, this dumb wanna be preacher in our group started arguing with an ARMED guard with a oozi when we arrived, over having his luggage searched. He got the full “Israeli Welcome” with his own private strip search. The good thing about that is when we were leaving to fly back to the States the would be preacher boy was meek and kept his trap shut!

    1. “… He shared with every member of the team at one time or another that it was “God’s will” that they date.”

      God apparently willed polygamy in his case.

      I’m sure the folks in the “mission field” were delighted to be reduced to forming his excuse to chase girls … 🙄

    2. “He shared with every member of the team at one time or another that it was “God’s will” that they date.”

      That was the reason I broke up with my fundy boyfriend. He told me on our last date that it was God’s Will that we get married. I told him that if that were the case I would’ve also heard something and since I hadn’t been getting any messages from the Almighty lately…
      God’s Will: Fundyspeak for, “I want you to do something and this is how I plan to manipulate you into doing it.”

      1. Phatchick wrote:
        “He shared with every member of the team at one time or another that it was “God’s will” that they date.”

        That was the reason I broke up with my fundy boyfriend. He told me on our last date that it was God’s Will that we get married. I told him that if that were the case I would’ve also heard something and since I hadn’t been getting any messages from the Almighty lately…
        God’s Will: Fundyspeak for, “I want you to do something and this is how I plan to manipulate you into doing it.”


        Well, duh! God does not speak to womenfolk…Your boyfriend was the mediator between God and you.

        Well, many fundy men would like to think so…


  26. Darrell and Everyone,
    Thanks so much for the content of this site. I wish people knew like I know that SFL has been the best group therapy I’ve ever had, and I’ve seen my fair share of shrinks. I’m also glad you (Darrell) are easy on the fundies who are still in, and don’t go out of your way to embarrass them even though you easily could.

    1. Tyler,
      You’re not the only one. It’s been awesome group therapy for me too. I have amazing friends, but having never been in fundyland, they can’t possibly understand a lot of where I’m coming from. This blog does.

  27. I know this is a few days beyon the normal comments, but I’m on an online chat with my husband right now and I just realized how much I appreciate being married to a real man who’s comfortable letting his wife be herself.

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