Doubting The Salvation Of Others

Fundamentalists believe in the doctrine of Eternal Security otherwise known as the “Once Saved, Always Saved” approach to soteriology. However, this assurance robs fundamentalists of a vital tool used by other sects for keeping people in line; namely, the ability to threaten damnation for the malefactor’s eternal soul.

Not at all deterred by this, the fundamentalist simply modifies the approach slightly and instead suggests that if a person is currently in indulging in unspeakable wickedness, worldliness, and other types of wayward wandering that it’s likely they were never actually saved to start with. One way or another, if you sin you’re gonna burn.

Here’s the process.

1. The Question
“Would any true Christian be interested in reading that book?”

“Could a person who truly has the Holy Spirit happily go to that place?”

“If a person is truly born again could they really love that worldly thing?”

2. The Feigned Concern
“I’m concerned about your walk with the Lord.”

“I’m just don’t see the kind of growth that a true believer would have.”

“I think you may be self-deceived. Did you really mean it when you prayed?”

3. The Benediction
“Has there ever been a time in your life…”

“I’m going to see about getting you some spiritual counseling.”

“I will pray for you.”

Your eternal destiny is heavy price to pay for wanting to read the latest fantasy novel or listen to the radio.

By the way, if you’re going to stay in fundyland, my advice is to learn how to cry on command when confronted with these individuals. Show remorse and let them move on to the next victim. The penitent man shall pass.

107 thoughts on “Doubting The Salvation Of Others”

  1. Re. your tweet on the school of the prophets: Which country are those guys being patriotic towards? I didn’t know Oklahoma was a part of the Confederacy.

  2. So if the Baptist flag says “Book, Blood, Blessed Hope” does the backslider’s flag say “Wickedness, Worldliness, and Wayward Wandering?”

  3. Plus, if you can get someone to doubt their salvation maybe you can also get them to say the sinner’s prayer again just to be sure. I’ve known some people who have been “saved” 4 or 5 times.

    That’s a good way to boost the soul-winning numbers.

  4. I’ve been fortunate that the only place I ever experienced this was at PCC. When a floor leader/dean/etc who doesn’t know jack about you tries this move, it’s pretty ineffective. I think they all assume everyone is surrounded by poeple using that and it’ll be just as effective coming from them cause you “should” be conditioned to respond. When your response is that you don’t know if they are saved, and certainly haven’t seen any reason to believe they are, they have to start looking for other manipulative ways to get what they want.

  5. awesome!! but so sad…I had a roommate who was “saved” 5 or 6 times at her Christian highschool–and no more Christianity for her now that she’s grown up

  6. Or if you are not going to burn, you are sure grieving God by your compromising behavior.

    A lot of the posts here are a lot different than what I experienced as a conservative evangelical. But some posts like this one are very similar. There is a lot of cross-over between fundamentalism and conservative evangelical Christianity. Different points on the spectrum, depending on the issue or area.

  7. I swear a wave of pain washed over me when I read this. So, SO true. I never truly knew whether I was saved or not due to the constant state of guilt my parents and church would keep me in. No matter what I did that was good, they’d find something else I was doing that “a Christian wouldn’t do.” The guilt and hopelessness never went away.

    Apparently “by their fruits you will know them” means a long list of things you don’t do and hundreds of souls won, not love, joy, peace, etc. =P

  8. “The penitent man shall pass.” LOL!

    You might be a fundy if you don’t get many of SFL’s literary references.

    You might be a former fundy if you became aware of said references only after coming out of fundyland.

  9. Hey, I’ve heard that. Back in my IFB days I was told about an fellow IFB who was dying of an illness. He was so depressed he wondered was God still with him, and read Friedrich Nietizsche’s works (“God is Dead”). And a fundy actually said to me – “No child of God would even touch that book”. A dangerous statement here. As Christians we are all vulnerable to doubt, guilt, fear, and so on. We all still err.

    I agree with you that fundies and conservative-evangelicals (CEs) do cross-over in some areas. As a CE myself, I think the difference is that many CEs do tend to give considerably more time and patience than the average fundy before arriving at the same conclusion – questioning your spiritual condition.

    1. Another fun quote of Nietzsche: “The last Christian died on the cross.”

      Funny how they condemn Nietzsche and yet seem completely enamored of Ayn Rand these days. :mrgreen:

  10. @jimbo & Sarah. . .

    Try hundreds of times! 😛

    My dad is a former fundy and unfortunately this need to question people’s salvation was one of the vestiges of fundiness that never left him. Old habits die hard I guess.

  11. Obsessing about the salvation of her grandchildren is my elderly mother’s favorite pasttime. Her grandchildren are all embarrassed by her neverending efforts to evangelize them into her brand of assured salvation. She spends half her time worrying that the behavior of her children and grandchildren doesn’t look Christian enough, so they “might be unsaved,” and the other half of her time worrying that they only “appear” to be good sometimes because they’re trying to earn salvation. My fundy mother will never rest…while she is breathing. She longs for each of us to have the assurance that she has always had, so we can be at peace. I don’t want her brand of peace. It’s exhausting!

  12. My experience with this trait has been that they use the question “are you sure you are saved?” as a way of telling you to modify you’re behavior.
    I.e. You are acting like a lost person (by reading that book, going there, thinking that thought) so I am going to treat you like one until you straighten up.

  13. This plays into the Fundy “Short Accounts” doctrine. It’s not that you aren’t saved, it’s just that you are out of favor with God at the time of your sin so you have to get it “under the blood” as soon as possible so that you can be right with God in case you have an emergency you really need to pray about. See, if your sin accounts are not prayed up and you are not “right” with God then according to fundy doctrine you are out of God’s will and if you pray He won’t hear you.

    Honest Injun, I’ve heard it preached from the pulpit
    **do people even use that expression any more??
    I guess that is the ultimate in Fundy Pop-Culture reference timing , Whadda you think?
    You Betchem’, Red Ryder

    Darrell covered it here:

    1. Oh man, Don, you hit the nail on the head with this one. Even though I’ve been out of Fundyland for over 8 years, I still can’t get Psalm 66:18 out of my mind. It’s the verse that says something like, “If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me.” That verse haunts me a lot. 😥

  14. There was this older teen in my IFB, she was popular and a flirt, everyone liked her. I hated her (sinful, I know) she would become saved again at every Wild’s camp, every New Years Eve church night (after the scary end times movies) and probably a few more times throughout the year. Tears, drama, displays etc. I thought she was a shameless attention whore. Now I know she was a traumatized kid.

  15. That was the story of my life when I was growing up Baptist. I was taught that we were saved because we made the choice to ask Jesus to save us, and that we had to truly repent of our sins and believe with our whole heart. I was constantly scared that I hadn’t believed hard enough or prayed fervently enough, so I remember many times praying with tears that Jesus would save me if He hadn’t already, “and I really, really mean it this time!” Then I would hear another fervent sermon about the necessity of making sure of your salvation, and I would get scared again, and the whole thing would start over.

    The problem, I realize now, was the emphasis on our work of choosing to be saved. Baptists would hotly deny that they believe in salvation by works, but that is what this amounts to. I have since learned that a lot of people have the same experience I had. It wasn’t until I was at BJU and started attending a Presbyterian church that I learned differently. It is both humbling and liberating to realize that the decision lies with Christ, and I am saved not because I had the great good sense to choose Him, but because He chose me. One of the associate pastors at my church refers to his salvation as “When Jesus lovingly invaded my heart”, and I couldn’t say it better.

  16. Jay: My husband grew up mainly CE with only limited Fundy exposure, yet he acts like a better Fundy than I ever was. He swears up and down he can’t identify with the things I went through, but he actually knows much of it way too well and can’t see it in himself.

    Unfortunately, this whole business of doubting other people’s salvation is one of the things he does. Even though I’ve told him certain people have accepted Christ, even though he’s been privy to spiritually-minded conversations with these people, he still prays for their salvation because they don’t go to church.

    I love him dearly, but I get really tired of the way he assumes people aren’t saved.

  17. I reject the concept of the *magic prayer*
    There’s a lot of magic and fortunetelling in fundyland.

  18. Darrell – you need to put this into a SNL skit somehow. Eventhough fundies wouldn’t see it bc they don’t watch snl.

  19. Story of my childhood!
    The constant questioning of salvation was a big part of me leaving the faith. I realize now that it was just a fear-based behavior modification trick. It’s quite silly that it actually works, when one thinks about it.

  20. @ Donna, “I was constantly scared that I hadn’t believed hard enough or prayed fervently enough, so I remember many times praying with tears that Jesus would save me if He hadn’t already, “and I really, really mean it this time!” Then I would hear another fervent sermon about the necessity of making sure of your salvation, and I would get scared again, and the whole thing would start over.” Oh, me too! So totally me too! I’m trying to rest in Christ and not on what I did or didn’t pray at age 3 (and 8 and 12 and 16, etc.)

  21. I was once told that my pastor was questioning my salvation because I was reading Nietzsche and the Koran. Never mind the fact that I was reading these as required reading for classes at a fundy University (it was just further “proof” the University had gone liberal), the mere fact I possessed them and had no problem reading them was cause for concern. I wonder what they would have thought had they known I was reading Stephen Hawking, Kurt Vonnegut, and George Orwell for my light reading…. (I owe so much to Animal Farm and 1984)

  22. Oh Chaos, do I know how this feels. “Did you ask Jesus to save you? Were you sincere?” And so I’d ask myself if I’d been “sincere” enough the first three times I asked Jesus to save me. Maybe I wasn’t! Maybe I’d better ask again just to be sure! So I would. It took me a long time to realize that such sermons weren’t making me just doubt myself, but Jesus too.

    And the entire “You’re not growing inyour Christian life so you must not be saved!” I grew more in my faith when I was AWAY from church, and now I know why!

  23. ” this assurance robs”
    I wonder how ironic you were trying to be? I got myself disliked because I pointed out that if one was not knowing if they were really saved, how assured were they of salvation?

    I seem to have had it better than most, though. I became a Christian because God personally led me, an atheist, to Himself, so stupidity in humans doesn’t surprise me and I’m loyal to Christ. I’m more conservative than most, (by nature), so it is hard to attack me on those grounds. I taught my son to think for himself, too, so he survived BYU (HE wanted to go to it!) without a spiritual scratch.

    I’m not fond of this blog, but I can understand it. Just don’t pursue grudges. Pursue God–even if He leads you into a more ‘liberal’ group. He is a Lover and Life.

  24. David Smith deals the doubt, special access AND bitterness card in one post! Nicely done, David.

  25. My adult son is a PK. Though I never expected more of him just because he was a pastor’s son, it seems others did. He now tells me that people often challenged or questioned him. He puts it this way: “You know nothing about me, but you presume to know how I need to change my life?” Sad to say, their concern–at least for now–backfired.

  26. I dig the Indy reference in the last sentence. Reminds me of the time I was in Old Testament History class in Bible College, where, of course, attending the theater during the semester was a violation of school policy. When Dr. So & So was trying to explain to us about the city of Petra, he said, “Okay, I know you’re not supposed to attend the theater, but I know you still watch movies on your VCRs. Go and rent Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, and toward the end, where they actually find the Holy Grail, you’ll see the entrance to Petra.”

    Apparently, class assignments involving watching movies during the semester constitutes a fundy indulgence.

  27. In all religious circles, man is relentless in his effort to make salvation/ sanctification all about us and our silly little efforts. It is all about Christ and the will of the Father.

    So often people can’t handle grace. It doesn’t allow for pride or religious control.

  28. Are you kidding me 😛 This isn’t a fundy thing – this is a staple of Christianity, a terrible staple of Christianity. One has to only look at popular evangelical leaders today (I will probably name names :P), Calvinist/Arminian and anything in between to see this “phenomenon”. Constantly asking questions “Oh, you don’t hand out tracts? You must not really be saved”, “oh, you dress differently to me, you mustn’t be saved”, “you attend a youth group and act like other people at the youth group, none of you are probably saved”.

    Christian Golden Child of Hollywood – Kirk Cameron – is notorious for this. Francis Chan has preached heaps of sermons and written entire books bringing doubt to many.

    According to nearly every preacher I have heard, the only way you can have assurance of salvation is by constantly examining your works – which has got to be the most unsturdy foundation to examine! Christ’s work is perfect, why examine my own? It’s like the only verse in the Bible is James 2:14 when it comes to assurance of salvation.

    This post really hit a nerve with me, because in my experience, those outside of Fundyism have done more damage in this regard (to me at least) than fundies have (although, when I was a fundy, this was also rampant).

      1. I don’t do daily devotions. I’ve given up religion (by religion, I mean scheduled, ordered worship and prayer time). It works for some people, although many do it simply because they feel they have to. I talk to God pretty casually through out the day, but I don’t open my Bible every morning and strain to get “convicted” by a proverb or something 😛

        1. I’ve the same thing. My family is mortified that I don’t attend church. Just the other day my grandmother called me and tried to guilt me into going. One of the definitions of “church” is “institutionalized form of religion as a political or social force”. I’m pretty sure that’s not what God had in mind.

          I find discussing my beliefs and thoughts about God with my boyfriend and other believer friends more edifying and worshipful than all the drama a church family brings. According to everyone else however, I’m “forsaking the assembling of the saints.”

          Shame on me.

    1. Take a look at Galatians 5:22-23, passages concerned with the fruits of the spirit. Confront those trying to spread salvation. Do they appear to display those fruits? Tell them that they are NOT saved and watch their reactions. If they respond with anger then you may be dealing with wolves in sheep clothing. Only by their fruits can you determine if they are of God. Watch any televangelist….do they look happy, are they at peace, do they show joy? If not…..hurry, change the channel!

  29. I get this a lot. Especially from family members, but even from people who don’t know anything about me other than I’m a trans woman. “A real Christian wouldn’t engage in that lifestyle.” What, go to work every day, pay my bills on time, buy my groceries with coupons, sing in the choir, and take care of my neighbors? Is that the lifestyle real Christians don’t engage in? 🙄

    1. I’m going to ask the question many others are probably wondering. Many here, despite not being fundys, are probably still quite conservative and wouldn’t see trans gender or homosexual lifestyle as something that God would endorse (although I hope they would be compassionate in their approach and friendly and not judgmental). Without judging, I am curious as to what you think of sin, Jesus sacrifice and His purpose for shedding his blood?


  30. But this is when everyone “rededicates their life” every so often. I think I’m saved, but if not, this is me getting saved again or for the first time- whichever. Rededications are good at keeping the numbers up so it looks like things are happening at the church. “Last week we had 3 salvations, 14 rededications and 2 surrendering to preach.”

  31. I’m 23, out of fundyland, and still have times when I lay awake at night thinking, “What if I’m not really saved/ didn’t mean it enough? Will I go to hell?”

  32. I confess I never understood the “saved again” bit. If you have to be saved again, what did Jesus die for?

  33. Perfect post. I know i was “saved” at least 4 times during my fundy days, most of them inspired by sermons that scared me silly. But one of those times I was directly accused by my youth minister of not being saved because I was “losing faith”. Well, I didn’t know at the time, but that was not far from the truth, and for good reason, I don’t think any 6year old deserves to fear hell as a punishment for all the “terrible” sins that they have committed, such as not listing to her parents, or hitting her brother, I was an evil child in need of salvation for sure!!! 😀

    1. I had a thought about revival meetings. I have been chatting to Dave from and he shared this with me (I think it was him).

      Modern “revival” services go about bringing revival (life) the wrong way – by preaching death and condemnation and judgment and law, which results in people running to the altar to “rededicate”, instead of preaching grace, truth and God’s magnicifent love, which results in life, and not fear and death.

  34. This is fundamentalist. Hmmmmm. What I’ve noticed more among fundamentalists is the willingness to allow someone to live about any way that he wants until he is “dedicated.”

    The actual doctrine you are making fun of here is historic Christian doctrine and mainly because it is in the Bible. 2 Cor 13:5, the whole book of 1 John, the whole book of James, Jesus—Mt 7:21-23.

    1. Of course, Kent. Its called ‘Love Bombing’ and its all before the hard sell. Once they’re ‘in’ then the biblical hand springs can begin! The emotions are kept on HIGH (yes, fear and guilt are emotions too, fundies) while the person’s individuality is broken down and replaced with submission to group think. That’s when the fun begins – even your own children can be made into agents of Satan, Amen?

    2. So Kent, you think it is a biblical doctrine to examine the salvation of others and make a judgment based on their works?

      Despite the fact that the fruit of the spirit is peace joy love etc, and not “abstaining from bad works”. Despite the fact that 2 Cor 13:5 never says to examine your works to see if you are saved, but your faith (ie, what are you believing). Despite the fact that James 2 has it’s emphasis upon faith working to save others (and not even from hell, James is using a social illustration of a poor man – can your faith save him from hunger, the cold etc, no.. but your works will). Despite the fact that in Matthew 7:21-23 the people there HAD works, they HAD the supposed evidence of salvation (works), but Jesus never knew them – they WORKED iniquity (ie, their works were filthy rags, and all their INIQUITIES had taken them away – Isaiah 64:6)

      1. I think he was talking about questioning what a scriptural salvation would look like. He never really mentioned works except for the phrase” live any way he wants”. Technically what he says resognates with me more. A person may get saved,but may never have a relationship or fellowship with God. They may just go out and live the party lifstyle. How far can that go with never examining behavior? Can a person be saved and be a rapist or a child molestor? How about a murderer and just claim “Well Christ’s work is perfect”?

        1. I’ve never encountered anyone who claims to be a Christian and is a serial killer at the same time. I hear it all the time (can you kill someone and still be a christian or other questions), but I’ve never encountered it. However, I have encountered alcoholics that are Christians, I have encountered porno addicts that are Christians. I have encountered people that struggle with sin, fully aware it is sin and are slowly gaining victory over it (or, in some cases, feel they have no chance of victory anymore because of the condemnation of men who have condemned them without offering them grace and the hope that is in Christ).

          The crowd I am familiar with are very quick to judge sinners who admit they sin, but claim to be Christian. You’ve probably seen the street preachers with the signs “adulterers, murderers, liars, thieves, porn addicts, drug abusers, alcoholics etc etc you are going to hell”, and the sign is missing “proud at heart” “self righteous” etc etc. I was one of them.

          There is a “movement” today, and it’s very prevalent on the internet, because it is easy to cast accusation with little personal repercussion (ie, you don’t actually have to see the person, the hurt you cause them etc), where these followers of men who have seen a few popular sermons decide to take it upon themselves to judge the salvation of others, based on a few sentences they have read on a youtube channel, or a few minutes of someones elses life they have seen.

        2. Would’nt the answer to the murderer question be no because “no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.”? I don’t think he was margializing people who are struggling. I think he was talking about continuing in sin unrepentantly, using Jesus as a get out of hell free card.

        3. Do people actually do that though? I’ve not really come across anyone who thought “I can sin all I want because I prayed a prayer”. Maybe it’s not very prevalent where I am from. I hear it a lot from those who teach that works are necessary to prove salvation or to even be saved, but I’ve never encountered anyone that has said it or believes it…

        4. Where I.m from its more of you can be saved ,but not/never serve live how you want,but mess up your life.Here’s aan example of what Pastor Brandenburg was talking about. I go to a Senior Saints SS class. I not old. The only classes I can chose from are Young married, 50-60′ year old, Ladies Class and Senior Saints. The elderly man who teaches the class was a pastor. he says that he was too busy building churches to be a dad or have time for his sons. One of his sons is an open homosexual hair dresser. He(the SS teacher) says he belives his son is saved,but just never sold out to serve the LORD during a SS lesson a couple of weeks ago.

        5. sorry if I jumped to conclusions – those 3 verses are quoted ad nauseum by the kinds of people I am talking about – people who have listened to too much Paul Washer, Ray Comfort and the like. They miss the grace and think it is now their duty to examine others salvation constantly. And the verses are quoted without context and even the meaning is twisted (2Cor13 becomes “examines your works”, Matthew 7:21 becomes “if you don’t have works, Jesus doesn’t know you” and James 2 becomes “your works save you”). So I guess my response was abrasive because men that have been heavily influenced by Comfort and Washer have caused more hurt to my relationship with God than the IFB’s ever did.

  35. The strange thing about the need for salvation is that Jesus never spoke about it at all! When Jesus was asked what the greatest commandment was, he said the first was to love God and the second was to love one another. Where exactly does salvation come into play concerning these spiritual commandments? Perhaps those who will not follow these commandments, prefer judging and damning others(prohibited by Jesus in Matthew 7:1-2) as a “suitable” alternative way to attain eternal life in heaven. Faith has been replaced with belief and love has been replaced with hatred and condemnation. ❗

    1. Not sure you are right on Jesus not talking about salvation. Jesus spoke John 3:16 and also, John 3:17

      John 3:17
      For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

      and John 5:34
      But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.

      and John 10:9
      I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

      I know what you mean though – love has been replaced with judgment, but the people doing the judging then claim “oh, I am so loving because I condemn you all and hope you go to hell. Oh, you don’t have to go there, but I want to scream about your sins a little bit more and ignore my own and then I’ll add the word repent to my message and you can figure the rest out. Also, Jesus might love you but probably not”.

      1. I’ll conceed my mistake only if you can answer: What kind of salvation was Jesus talking about? After all, when he said this he had not yet been crucified…..there was no salvation “by his blood”. So, are we to imagine that there is a salvation that is not dependent on the sacrifice on the cross? If so, Jesus died for nothing and the Christian religion is wrong…..all of it! ❗

        1. Well, I sorta agree with you, although I don’t know where you are coming from –

          Jesus was teaching Kingdom Salvation – salvation of the jews – an earthly salvation and restoration of their Kingdom and dominion over the earth. It was not until Paul that salvation and forgiveness of sins through blood was mentioned 🙂 (you probably know this, but even in Acts 2 & 3, Peter does not preach forgiveness through the blood – but rather tells Israel to repent because they crucified their messiah).

      2. In the book of I John 3, there are passages that mention that if the seed of God is within, it is impossible to sin. Futhermore it is stated that no one who is born of God continues to sin and that those who still do sin, are the children of the devil. There isn’t a single Christian on earth that will admit that he/she DOESN’T sin. Salvation is not accomplished by belief in a blood sacrifice but by allowing God’s spirit to dwell within.

        To clarify matters, I am a spirit-filled Gnostic and I have no sin within me and therefore I am unable to sin. Jesus did not die on the cross for my sins as I have none. Christianity is, simply put, going the wrong way…..terribly fast. The author of the book of John and the apostle Paul were both Gnostic Christians. What they wrote was intended to be read by Gnostics.

        1. @Don: Most important: Sin is a Jewish concept….I’m not Jewish. So, why should I believe in sin? The apostle Paul said that the Gentiles were not under the Law of Moses. Since I’m a Gentile, the Law and all it’s implications simply have no place in my life. And if the Bible were the “Word” of God, I assume that God would agree with me.

        2. No, sin is a “Divine” concept. Neither Adam, nor Eve were jewish. Sin entered prior to the Hebrew nation, or Jews. You’ll have to re-think that one.

        3. There is nothing “divine” about sin. Adam and Eve never existed. Sin was created by man for the sole excuse for beating up one’s neighbour. One can never evolve if he/she is constantly reminded of stupid little mistakes that need to be forgiven all the time. I refuse to believe that all of humanity is cursed with sin all because of what two people supposedly did in the Garden of Eden. Sin is a concept that has outlived its usefullness.

          Besides, who can say whether I commit sin or that I’m sinful?

        4. Besides, who can say whether I commit sin or that I’m sinful?

          I can.
          On and by the authority of the Word of God I can tell you what sin is. I am not afraid to challenge you on this.

          Now both of us can be wrong when it comes to sin but we both can’t be right. And while I am tolerant of other’s opinions you have made an absolute statement that must be addressed.

          By denying original sin, and the narritive of Adam and Eve you place your opinion above God’s special Revelation regarding Himself and His creation through the written word. Your specific attack regarding scripture Adam and Eve never existed. is a direct attack on God and Scripture. Either God is a liar or Scripture can’t be trusted. Either attack attempts to undermine God our Creator.

          Sin is the willful act of disobedience to the commands of our Creator God. We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because by our very nature we are enemies of God and we willfully seek to disobey, and have our own will and way in all we do.

          At least you are honest enough to admit that all these suppositions you are making are a direct result of your own refusal to believe what the Scripture says regarding creation and sin, or at least what you interpret scripture to say.

          One can never evolve if he/she is constantly reminded of stupid little mistakes that need to be forgiven all the time. I refuse to believe that all of humanity is cursed with sin all because of what two people supposedly did in the Garden of Eden.

          This statement shows a lack of understanding of redemption and what saving grace is truely all about. Christ did not come to save sinners one sin at a time. No, when he paid for our sin it was for allour past sins, all our present sins and all our future sins. And to put in us a new nature.

          Your view on sin is akin to saying if everyone is special then no one is special. So if everyone sins then no one sins. You say there is no such thing as sin… is there such a thing as “right” and “wrong?” Where did these concepts come from? Do you believe in Truth? Absolute Truth?

          If Truth Evolved by trial and error then we cannot be certain of any “truth” we have because we do not know if and when the next step of its evolution will take place or if it is True or just in place by pragmatic repetition. The same holds true for “right” and “wrong.”

          But we know this can’t be so. We know there are absolute truths and absolute “right” and absolute “wrongs.” (It is wrong to torture babies for fun.) That is an absolute statement and is absolutely wrong to engage in such actions. So where do we get such an absolute truth from?

          No, the Creation narritive and Adam and Eve are more than myth and fable but the beginning of special revelation from our Creator God regarding who and what we are and our condition before and relation to a Holy Perfect Almighty God. Your refusal to believe it is so, or your refusal to accept the consequences of original sin do not affect the veracity of Scripture.

        5. @Don…..The bible is NOT the word of God. Man is at fault for believing it to be God’s word. That God exists, I have absolute(100%) faith. The bible,however, is nothing but a gross joke played out by man to deceive his/her neighbour! I will use “scripture” to point out the faults in fundamental christianity….you want to call it the “word of god”, I’ll show the contradictions that abound in it. 😀

  36. The one thing that really iritates me, is being confronted by those who think I need salvation. If they “know” God, how is it that they don’t know that I also know God?! I’ve heard it mentioned on TV and on the pulpit that no one can ever know the “Will of God”. Why the hell not? Could it be that they simply don’t want God screwing up their plans on getting eternal rewards? The Christian “Catch-22”: If you know God you can’t go to heaven, but if you don’t know God…you can go to heaven. I can’t count the number of times I’ve been told that the voice of God I hear is actually the devil within me. 😈

  37. exIFB,

    I personaly think that in John 3:16-17, Jesus had stoped speeking and John was narrating.


    Perseverance of the Saints is something I believe in. If you are saved God will keep you on the path of growth in Christ. The problem is when people use it to control others through fear. If you consistently live in sin then yes, you have no proof you are saved. However, if a person prefers to wear a collared shirt to church rather then a suit and tie or goes to the movies once in a while, then people have no business pulling the are-you-saved? card because he hasn’t exactly duplicated their extra-biblical standards.

    1. This is what I don’t get. What does “consistently live in sin mean”. Most Christians admit they sin daily. If that is not consistently, I don’t know what you mean. I am a Christian because I am a sinner and Christ died for sinners.

      1. I don’t get that either. My boss believes that if you are involved in “gross sin” and don’t confess it before you die, you’re Hell-bound. Yet, he also says he’s not sure what “gross sin” is. This seems to me to put the focus on performance, so you don’t do something bad before you die from a heart attack/natural causes/getting hit by the proverbial bus. If one thing causes me to lose my salvation, and it’s possible I don’t even know what that thing is, then why even try? 🙁

      2. If Christians admit they sin daily then according to I John 3: 8-10, they are the children of the devil and they are unrighteous. What a conundrum that is! 🙂

      3. Good reply exIFB
        Your question was how to know when sin (which Christians do) is ‘too much’ sin. (Let me know if I’m missrepresenting your thought here)

        – Don’t get me wrong, I do not believe a person can lose salvation once he is ‘saved’. No amount of sin can overcome Christ’s righteousness, which we have been given.
        – The discussions in 1 John and other places are tests for the person to examine his own life with. The point is to make sure your ‘calling and election is sure’. We simply do not know if another person is redeemed or not. This is not a stone for us to cast at people around us.
        – It is a God-centered idea (or supposed to be), and when it becomes focused instead on man and his works it is no longer serving its purpose. It is God who works in us both to be able to do His will and to want to do it in the first place; and it is the Spirit who confirms our sonship with our own spirit. If a person has neither of these, then it would be unwise for them to trust in a childhood prayer. They should reexamine themselves.

        1. lol, I may have inadvertently danced around your question there. The degree and amount of sin is not as much the issue as the presents or lack of God’s work in the person’s life (which is an internal matter which often produces observable results in the life).

  38. @Darrell, the weird thing about Teens-4-christ is that you must be a teen to register (apparently the owner is in the habit of making phone calls to check!) and you can’t be over 18…

    But, he is in his 40’s. Randy Ross or something is his name.

    1. This 40 something Randy dude makes phone calls to TEENS to check if they are indeed under 18??? Oh wouldn’t he have some trouble if a 40 something year old MAN called my minor daughter (or son if I had one) for ANY reason. I would call the police. Gives me the creeps! 👿

      1. Well, I heard it from someone who had no reason to lie. It was a few years back. Not sure if he still does now. I might register and check lol 😛

  39. Guys, what do you think of “newly Reformed” folks who spout Way of the Master, plus sermons stuff from Paul Washer, Tim Conway, Albert Martin etc., who always talk about ‘worldliness’, evidence of salvation etc.? I am not saying everything they say is wrong but they (the “newly reformed” ppl) seem to focus almost entirely on these two topics most of the time.

    I dunno really, but I think they resemble IFBs in reformed garb. Many of them sound really the same as IFBs.

    1. What I have been saying for years. As an IFB I used to LOVE Ray Comfort. He preached works works and more works and was always saying everyone else was unsaved for this or that. And I also loved Paul Washer, until God woke me up to the fact that I was not and could not, live up to the standards I preached or they preached in my own strength, in my own efforts. Washers message is more palatable than comforts but I think he places too much emphasis on examining your own works, and it results in people placing faith in their works as evidence, rather than placing their faith in Christ and not worrying about their filthy rags.

      1. Also, if it weren’t for the fact you are a Calvinist, I would suspect you of being me 😛

        I wonder how depressing it must be to be in Tim Conway’s church and having him tell you you are probably going to hell every week because you haven’t “let go of your sin” yet, whatever that means. The “nu calvinism” is just works salvation in disguise.

        1. ExIFB, no thankfully I’m not in that type of church. We’re more of the mainstream “Reformed evangelical” kind – people like Sproul, Mark Dever, Carson would be somewhat descriptive of our theology.

          And my pastor has never heard of Paul Washer before (surprising?)

      1. IFBNoMore was the name of my blog (not related in anyway to the guy posting in here). It got too depressing to write, and it wasn’t going anywhere, so I stopped. Brought up a lot of memories, because I was trying to be open in my background rather than pretending to be perfect, and it opened some wounds I’d rather have stayed closed. So I haven’t posted anything for a while. Basically, it was me dealing with sins that I committed while not a Christian, and then struggling in the IFB church and condemning myself because of sins I continued to struggle with and seeing no freedom because I was continually under the law of sin and death, instead of liberty in Christ.

  40. I actually agree that good works is an evidence of true faith, but I really don’t agree with the methodology these fellows hold onto. Yes, exIFB, like you said they emphasize too much on our works instead of Christ.

    Sanctification is never a straight linear line upwards to perfection, as some pietists seem to promote. We are all still prone to sin even after we receive Jesus. Abraham stumbled, sinned. So did Jacob, David and Solomon (really badly). And not to forget the Apostle Peter.

    Yet in spite of all these, God still worked patiently with them. Jesus, both God and Man, understands our weaknesses and fears and fallen nature. He makes us see our errors and sinful ways, heals and restores us that we may learn to trust Him more. As He promised to all His children, “I will never leave you nor forsake you”.

    This work of God is the ‘evidence of salvation’ I believe in – growing in love towards God AND others. More laws create only more sin – our own works, and attempts to obey the Law never brings favor before God – only brings us more misery and pain.

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