The Title of a Pastor

[Away-From-The-Umbrella]

(04-13-2011 09:42 PM)TomK Wrote:  It seems it was removed. I have it saved on Instapaper, but I'd rather just let this bit of silliness die. It was a lousy article anyway.

Awww...I would like to have been able to read it.

Some people still do not believe how crazy that place really is.

[tena]

<you are going to the place that God may meet with you>

Wow, I feel so bad for this guy. His god must be so small. I am so grateful that I can be in a constant and forever relationship with the living God. I am always able to meet with Him. He doesn't care about how I look. As a matter of fact, He even says in His word that it is man that looks at the outward appearance and while He is concerned about my inward appearance. I think so much time is spent in fundy churches dealing with inane trivial things like whether to wear a tie or not so they don't have to look at what is on the inside of their hearts.

My Pastor is my spiritual leader but he is also my friend. I have a hard time calling my pastor by his first name even though he tells me to all the time, probably my fundy background coming through. It seems to always be sitting on my shoulder.

[GraceThruFaith]

(04-14-2011 05:41 PM)pblawman Wrote:  I have to retract my statement that I've never seen the latter. I picked up my pastor at the airport after a ten day trip to Haiti following the earthquake last year. I have to say, I appreciated seeing him in unwashed clothes more than I would have appreciated seeing him in a suit and tie.

I have never once seen my Fundy pastor in anything but a suit/tie or buttoned-down/jeans or Dockers.

It would be so cool to see him in something else because I can finally view him as something other than a 'pastor'. Being raised in a Fundy world, I've come to think of pastors as a unique sub-set of Christians who are not supposed to look like regular people and have this 'equal to OT prophet/priest/king' aura about them.

[TomK]

(04-14-2011 05:55 PM)GraceThruFaith Wrote:  I have never once seen my Fundy pastor in anything but a suit/tie or buttoned-down/jeans or Dockers.

It would be so cool to see him in something else because I can finally view him as something other than a 'pastor'.

My first week at my church I remember hearing, "Wow, I've never seen a pastor wear jeans." I've met many pastors who never turn off the pastor voice or pastor wardrobe. It becomes very phony.

[Chad Williams]

(04-14-2011 04:15 PM)GraceThruFaith Wrote:  

(04-14-2011 04:01 PM)Chad Williams Wrote:  [The preachers I have seen that try to be "hip and cool" have a tendecy to wear the jeans that are designed to look worn and faded, sometimes even have holes in them. It may just be the way I was raised, but why pay money for clothes that look like they are wore out?

While I agree that the pastor (or whoever is leading the worship service) should dress nice, my beef is with a Fundy pastor who believes that you MUST wear a suit and tie. A Fundy pastor will never talk about men who dress in nice button-down shirts and jeans, rather they go to the extreme (like with everything else) and cast stones at the men who wear t-shirts and khaki shorts or skin-tight jeans or something worldly during the worship service.

Why do Fundies always go to the extreme on everything, for that matter?

I have been in sales since college and continue to be involved even as I become more involved in ministry, so suits and ties, also khaki pants and button down shirts have been the norm. To me jeans are something I wear to work in the yard or when I am hunting or fishing. Also the truth is a grown man does not look good wearing skin-tight pants. I have seen numerous youth pastors try pulling of that look and it just creeps me out. It gets even wors when it is the 45 year old senior pastor dressing that way. There is a thing called dressing your age. I guess I am never going to understand why this urge of people to just dress what ever way, to heck with the context of the event they may be involved in.

[Darcy]

1. God "meets" me wherever I am...whether that is washing dishes, playing outside with my kids, or worshiping with other believers. I do not feel the need to dress any differently in a church building purely because "God is there". God is everywhere we are, last time I checked.

2. I hate the title "pastor". I see no record of any man in the NT having any title or thinking he should deserve one. Except I think Paul called himself a tent-maker once.....

3. I would not attend a church where the emphasis is on outward appearance. This goes against everything I believe in. People should be free to dress in whatever style they want, as long as it's covering their bodies.

4. I would prefer a pastor wear whatever he feel comfortable in, not what he feels compelled to wear due to culture, profession, or people glaring judgmentally at him. I could care less if he doesn't wash his clothes as long as he loves and speaks truth and grace. I wonder if Jesus or Peter cared about what their clothes looked like or what people would think about them?

5. Where in the Bible is "pastor" a "profession"?

[Darcy]

I don't have a problem with paying a man who preaches. I do have a problem with a man assuming he SHOULD get paid for preaching, and for taking a spiritual gifting and service and calling of God and turning it into a profession and a salary. I also don't believe in the traditional role of "pastor", defined as one man that is the head of a congregation. I believe that pastor and elder are the exact same thing, and each congregation should have several of them. I think that "senior pastor" and "associate pastor" are creations of our culture and have nothing to do with authentic Christianity. I truly believe how we "do church" in America is very wrong. Sure, lots of things are permissible, but that doesn't make them edifying.

[TomK]

(04-15-2011 08:44 AM)Darcy Wrote:  2. I see no record of any man in the NT having any title or thinking he should deserve one. Except I think Paul called himself a tent-maker once.....

"Welcome to JBC, I'm Pastor Peter."

True, there aren't titles in the New Testament. Only first names.

[Darcy]

Quote:When you say that how we do church in America is very wrong and you say it in the context of senior and associate pastor and how some things aren't edifying I'm wondering what exactly that means? Are the titles un-edifying to you? or pastors in general? What is "very wrong" about those positions?

I could write a book on what I believe "church" should be and what it isn't and why (I wasn't exactly referring only to the pastor title). But that would derail this thread, which is supposed to be about pastors and their titles and suits. Also I don't have time for such a conversation right now, but it is an interesting one and, I believe, really important.

And, no, I do not believe we should sport titles like "pastor". I believe all parts of the body are necessary and equal and to call attention to one gift above the others is wrong and contrary to the Christ who was very much against anyone in His Kingdom lording their authority over anyone else. No one calls me "Worship Leader Darcy", and if they did, I would be appalled. What I do every Sunday is not any more important than "Nursery Worker Tess" or "Toilet Cleaner Bob", nor do I wish to call attention in such a way to my gift, as if I had something to do with it.

[Don]

(04-15-2011 09:49 AM)Donb123 Wrote:  ]
When you say that how we do church in America is very wrong and you say it in the context of senior and associate pastor and how some things aren't edifying I'm wondering what exactly that means? Are the titles un-edifying to you? or pastors in general? What is "very wrong" about those positions?

I'd like to jump in here if I may.
The "way" we do church has been an issue with me for awhile now as well. Especially as I look around me and I see 12 churches within 1-2 miles of my house. Each and everyone of them has a paid pastor. None of them have elders (in the Biblical sense of the word). What we have is a single "person" rule (since two of the 12 have female pastors). But what you see is all the spiritual authority bein placed on the shoulders of one person. Then you take into account denominationalism. We have 7 flavors of Baptist, two flavors of Methodist, a Church of Christ and I believe a Holiness group. Now each of these churches are vying for a limited number of people who are willing to go to church in the local community. Very few of these Churches have any functions together (but to their credit I know of three who get together with some others in the 3-5 mile range for fellowship a couple of time s a year. The SBC and the two of the Methodists)

Now once inside the fortress compound of each spiritual bunker we see the command and control system. It has suble varieties but generally speaking it is the same. One person controls their group of followers. Now, before the stones are cast let me ask this question: If the beloved pastor was to leave your church today would there be a split? How many would you lose in attendance? The cult of personality is alive and well in the Church in America today.

We all like to think we are doing church right, and we dare not question the status quo... but in reality it is a rare congregation who practices church, as a church body, outside the walls of their fortress compound. And it is even rarer for a "pastor" to encourage they do so. Often he is more worried about keeping the flock he has and making sure that his followers are not exposed to any truth but his. And unfortunately (especially in this area for the rusted buckle of the Bible Belt) the pastor's pay check is directly tied to the attendance/offering every Sunday.

I know many of you have heard some of my rantings on abuse of authority that we see by many in Americanized Churchanity. When it comes to so-called pastors I find it is best if I begin with Lord Acton's Axoim and go from there.