Quiverfulmania

[amyrose5]

(04-13-2011 08:52 AM)elfdream Wrote:  On Catholic soapbox:

I'm glad we have Mary...and all the female saints...some of whom have been named DOCTORS of the Catholic Church.

I can honestly say, and I"m only speaking for myself, that I have not heard one single sermon on wifely submission or 'the woman's place' in the seven years I have been Catholic. If anything it follows the interpretation of PW's original post here. Mutual respect, mutual submission, we are all to serve on another and not to lord anything over anyone. The 'Husband's love' your wife is the golden rule for husbands. You treat your wife the way YOU would want to be treated which should be the norm for everyone in every situation.

Steps down again.

I second all of this.

In our premarital counseling with our priest, in our workshop, and in the literature we were given, there was not even the slightest suggestion of marriage being anything but an equal partnership. Our priest is from India and actually talked about how he thinks that some people there view the husband as being dominant and he thinks that idea hurts marriages. He told us he sees that as the root of much conflict and pain in his brothers' marriages.

[Smith]

(04-13-2011 09:03 AM)steviusthedevious Wrote:  i didn't read any of the replies, so i'mma just do a drive-by post here:

believer of quiverfull? i'm a believer of christ! taking the biblicist's road on this one ...

But it appears that many believers in Christ feel that Christ's/God's teaching is biblically found in Quiverfull, Ruckmanism, MacArthurism, Dominionism, and any other "ism" that be easily found within Fundamentalist/Evangelical Christianity.

[Elijah Craig]

(04-13-2011 07:50 AM)Smith Wrote:  After reading her story, I was really struck by the fact that this IS a "man's world" and if one lives within the confines of the Fundamentalist/Conservative Evangelical framework, and is a female or child, you're doomed in most cases to live your life under someone's thumb and never really enjoy the life you were given, after a while, the most you can hope for is either to live vicariously through someone else or live in perpetual cognitive dissonance.

Thoughts?

Yes, it is a "man's world" for reasons that are deeply imbedded in nature and biology.

However, do you believe most men want to hold women under their thumb? Is that how you treat women? Do most women in traditional marriages seem unhappy and abused?

I think most men really just want their wives to stay off their back and leave them alone so they can watch football with the boys. Or whatever the male custom is in their country.

If my woman stuck Quiverfull material in my face I'd tell her to throw that junk in the garbage and bring me a beer instead.

[leaving]

(04-14-2011 12:17 AM)Elijah Craig Wrote:  However, do you believe most men want to hold women under their thumb? Is that how you treat women? Do most women in traditional marriages seem unhappy and abused?

I think most men really just want their wives to stay off their back and leave them alone so they can watch football with the boys. Or whatever the male custom is in their country.

I believe most "Christian" men want to hold women under their thumbs and unfortunately I've seen that to be true. And their pastors tell them frequently from the pulpit that they are allowed to do this and the wife is rebellious if she does not allow herself to be taken advantage of.

I don't know if that is how Smith treats women, but it's how a lot of IFB men treat women.

Most women in traditional IFB marriages are abused and then are told they can't talk about it.

If men want to be left alone all the time to watch football with the boys, there is a remedy for that. It's called staying single. Otherwise, you got married, you had kids, help out with them instead of sitting on your butt waiting for your wife to do everything and demanding that she do so.

[Smith]

(04-14-2011 07:12 AM)leaving Wrote:  

(04-14-2011 12:17 AM)Elijah Craig Wrote:  However, do you believe most men want to hold women under their thumb? Is that how you treat women? Do most women in traditional marriages seem unhappy and abused?

I think most men really just want their wives to stay off their back and leave them alone so they can watch football with the boys. Or whatever the male custom is in their country.

I believe most "Christian" men want to hold women under their thumbs and unfortunately I've seen that to be true. And their pastors tell them frequently from the pulpit that they are allowed to do this and the wife is rebellious if she does not allow herself to be taken advantage of.

I don't know if that is how Smith treats women, but it's how a lot of IFB men treat women.

Most women in traditional IFB marriages are abused and then are told they can't talk about it.

If men want to be left alone all the time to watch football with the boys, there is a remedy for that. It's called staying single. Otherwise, you got married, you had kids, help out with them instead of sitting on your butt waiting for your wife to do everything and demanding that she do so.

@Leaving,
No, I don't treat my wife in any way, shape or form in a Fundy manner. As a matter of fact, I really don't like or watch sports that much (outside of a Buckeyes football game here and there, I don't watch).

Addressing the procedures about how Fundies treat their wives: Yes, women are treated as second class at best, servants at the worst---I've rarely seen an outwardly happy Fundy wife...how can I tell? They speak without permission and can hold their own conversation which indicates cognitive freedom. Secondly, while the wife is speaking, the husband's facial color remains a healthy color because his blood pressure remains within normal parameters.

The Quiverfull movement is a full court press to keep women home, barefoot and perpetually pregnant, thus, denying her any of the normal aspirations of an individual life if she desires or enjoying the life she has with the dozen or so children she was forced to have by an "over zealous" husband who thinks he's Abraham or some nonsense like that.

@EC,
Get your own beer.

[leaving]

(04-14-2011 07:43 AM)Smith Wrote:  @EC,
Get your own beer.

*Cheers!*

You go, Smith! Woohoo!

I don't mind getting stuff for my husband when he needs it, but if he were to demand it, yeah, that would be different.

What I hate is that I have to constantly bug a grown man to put his laundry in the hamper instead of expecting me to hunt it down all over the entire house just to wash it. I don't have a dishwasher, my husband refuses to buy one, but he also refuses to touch the dishes himself. That's women's work according to him. He also refuses to fix stuff that really needs doing to make my life easier, but since it doesn't affect him we "can't afford it".

And this is him at the stage where his is "getting better" and actually starting to think about me and at least try to care.

[Smith]

(04-14-2011 07:50 AM)leaving Wrote:  

(04-14-2011 07:43 AM)Smith Wrote:  @EC,
Get your own beer.

*Cheers!*

You go, Smith! Woohoo!

I don't mind getting stuff for my husband when he needs it, but if he were to demand it, yeah, that would be different.

What I hate is that I have to constantly bug a grown man to put his laundry in the hamper instead of expecting me to hunt it down all over the entire house just to wash it. I don't have a dishwasher, my husband refuses to buy one, but he also refuses to touch the dishes himself. That's women's work according to him. He also refuses to fix stuff that really needs doing to make my life easier, but since it doesn't affect him we "can't afford it".

And this is him at the stage where his is "getting better" and actually starting to think about me and at least try to care.

I know what you mean...Before we bought the Maytag portable dishwasher, the girls and I would do the dishes; my wife works as a nurse 7PM to 7AM so she has enough to deal with so, for all practical purposes, I run the house. When I come home from work and load and run the dishwasher, cook dinner and clean up the kitchen, direct the girls what laundry needs done, and I have the personal honor of scooping the kitty litter(s).

[leaving]

(04-14-2011 07:53 AM)Donb123 Wrote:  I'm always amazed when men who do like sports,golf,fishing whatever whine about how their wife doesn't "let" them do whatever. I believe it's simply because they don't participate in the give-and-take of marriage and only take. The words "my wife won't let me..." never pass these lips because the corollary doesn't cross hers. I participate in all the family events from her side of the family and do the things with her that she likes (in so much as she wants me to.. sometimes you have your "own thing") so when I want to go watch some MMA she doesn't complain.

I know. Any time I even try to voice a preference that my husband not do something at a particular time (something that doesn't need to be done then) the penis rules no matter what logical reasons I have. Usually it's not that I care that he wants to go do whatever it is, but sometimes the timing bothers me. He's not a football, hunting of fishing kind of guy though. He's a "I want to go to the movies now, tonight, with my friends, and I only just thought of it and I know you have that major project to do that I've been promising for six months that we could do tonight, but I just want to go to the movies with my friends".

And yet, I have to say no to a lot of things. He claims we "can't afford" for me to have hobbies, and yet we CAN afford HIS world of warcraft subscription, and sometimes netflix which I also don't care for but don't care if he does, but he tells me that hobbies that women like are "too expensive".

Not saying our marriage is awful, it is starting to improve, but there are so many frustrations, and he was brought up to believe that he rules the roost, and anything that his woman wants probably isn't "necessary". Well, not as necessary as having a world of warcraft subscription, at any rate...

[LMcC]

(04-14-2011 07:53 AM)Donb123 Wrote:  Real Christian men love and respect all people, particularly their wives. I'm not sure what a "Christian" man is though.

Basically, a typical Fundy man. I agree with leaving that IFB teaching does not encourage men to love their wives, but to rule them and go full macho. Saw enough of that mess to last a hundred lifetimes. As I said earlier, when I was growing up, I was convinced that the submission verses were mandatory while the love verses were soundly ignored because that's what the church taught. Fortunately, being an egalitarian for ten years and marrying someone who couldn't give a rip about "macho" helps me recognize that not all men are alike that. Still suspicious as anything of IFB men, though.

Quote:I'm always amazed when men who do like sports,golf,fishing whatever whine about how their wife doesn't "let" them do whatever. I believe it's simply because they don't participate in the give-and-take of marriage and only take. The words "my wife won't let me..." never pass these lips because the corollary doesn't cross hers. I participate in all the family events from her side of the family and do the things with her that she likes (in so much as she wants me to.. sometimes you have your "own thing") so when I want to go watch some MMA she doesn't complain.

When Hubby asks me if he can do something, I remind him that he's free and over 21. All I ask is to know how long he'll be gone so I can go get into something by myself. After all, it's not exactly like I was trained to tell him what to do or not to do. Even after all these years, it's still weird that he even asks.

[Smith]

(04-14-2011 08:30 AM)LMcC Wrote:  

(04-14-2011 07:53 AM)Donb123 Wrote:  Real Christian men love and respect all people, particularly their wives. I'm not sure what a "Christian" man is though.

Basically, a typical Fundy man. I agree with leaving that IFB teaching does not encourage men to love their wives, but to rule them and go full macho. Saw enough of that mess to last a hundred lifetimes. As I said earlier, when I was growing up, I was convinced that the submission verses were mandatory while the love verses were soundly ignored because that's what the church taught. Fortunately, being an egalitarian for ten years and marrying someone who couldn't give a rip about "macho" helps me recognize that not all men are alike that. Still suspicious as anything of IFB men, though.

Quote:I'm always amazed when men who do like sports,golf,fishing whatever whine about how their wife doesn't "let" them do whatever. I believe it's simply because they don't participate in the give-and-take of marriage and only take. The words "my wife won't let me..." never pass these lips because the corollary doesn't cross hers. I participate in all the family events from her side of the family and do the things with her that she likes (in so much as she wants me to.. sometimes you have your "own thing") so when I want to go watch some MMA she doesn't complain.

When Hubby asks me if he can do something, I remind him that he's free and over 21. All I ask is to know how long he'll be gone so I can go get into something by myself. After all, it's not exactly like I was trained to tell him what to do or not to do. Even after all these years, it's still weird that he even asks.

Wow, I've got "time envy"...I admire the fact that some husbands have the time to do stuff. You know it's bad when going into town for a hair cut is "away time"....