Is Tithing Biblical?

[Tony R]

(04-06-2011 11:04 AM)leaving Wrote:  I don't get paid for studying if I want to go to college, in fact, I have to pay FOR the privilege. If you are working 50 hours a week in your pastoral duties then your church has taken on too much. It doesn't matter what people "expect" they don't need to be visited every time they are sick. Your church doesn't need tons of programs. Yeah, sometimes people need counseling. But if you are counting all that "studying" time as "work" then forget it.

AMEN! AMEN AMEN!

[Tony R]

(04-06-2011 12:15 PM)pblawman Wrote:  a Pastor should be paid well so that he isn't burdened with the pressures of finances as he seeks to minister.

I respectfully disagree. I think it is a crime for pastors to be "paid well" while others (those paying his salary) may be financially oppressed. How is a pastor supposed to counsel people how to be content with what they have, live within their means, etc. if he never has to think about it for himself. It is no different than a single preacher-boy trying to give marital advice.

[Tony R]

(04-06-2011 03:14 PM)TomK Wrote:  @leaving - Sorry to hear that you've had bed experiences. It is hard to not let those jade your opinions of all churches and pastors.

Two of the first priorities for most churches are 1) A place to gather. A valid priority considering house churches experience serious limitations.
2) Someone/s committed to teaching/leading the group. Also, a valid priority considering the limitations of distracted leadership.

The question of this thread is where does the money come from.

Solution #1: Enforce the Old Testament tithe and teach that this is expected of all members. It seems the SFL community is in agreement that this is not a biblical model.

Solution #2: People giving willingly. This is practiced all through Scriptural history and used in a variety of ways. Funding local worship is one of the most common. In this model people are not coerced, tracked, or guilted. They give because they love Jesus and want to support their church ministry. Using our finances to further the kingdom of God has a wealthy of Scriptural support and considering the prominence of the church in the New Testament, I consider church a worthy investment of my money into God's kingdom. For me, it is a joy to give.

I will go with Solution #2 along with Solution #3.

Solution #3: Churches stop operating beyond their means and pastors get jobs (at least part-time).

[pblawman]

(04-06-2011 04:06 PM)Tony R Wrote:  

(04-06-2011 12:15 PM)pblawman Wrote:  a Pastor should be paid well so that he isn't burdened with the pressures of finances as he seeks to minister.

I respectfully disagree. I think it is a crime for pastors to be "paid well" while others (those paying his salary) may be financially oppressed. How is a pastor supposed to counsel people how to be content with what they have, live within their means, etc. if he never has to think about it for himself. It is no different than a single preacher-boy trying to give marital advice.

Paid well is a relative term. It's hardly criminal to follow the clear teaching of scripture to "not muzzle the ox that treads the grain" and to count those elders that rule well "worthy of double honour". Obviously it shouldn't be to the point of financially oppressing the people. I never suggested that. But just because some in the congregation are struggling financially, that doesn't mean that the pastor should be struggling too.

Why should the church expect a pastor to give up four years of his life for undergrad, plus additional time for seminary, and not be compensated then for ministering full time to them.

[TomK]

(04-06-2011 04:13 PM)Tony R Wrote:  Solution #3: Churches stop operating beyond their means and pastors get jobs (at least part-time).

I agree churches shouldn't operate beyond their means. That is foolish. I know several bi-vocational pastors and that is a valid option for small churches.

[Tony R]

(04-06-2011 04:23 PM)pblawman Wrote:  Paid well is a relative term. It's hardly criminal to follow the clear teaching of scripture to "not muzzle the ox that treads the grain" and to count those elders that rule well "worthy of double honour". Obviously it shouldn't be to the point of financially oppressing the people. I never suggested that. But just because some in the congregation are struggling financially, that doesn't mean that the pastor should be struggling too.

Why should the church expect a pastor to give up four years of his life for undergrad, plus additional time for seminary, and not be compensated then for ministering full time to them.

I’m not talking about not providing the man’s NEEDS! I’m talking about the empire builders who have to have the best of everything and justifying it because it’s “for God’s work”. It makes me sick! What is a pastor anyway? (That would make a great thread). And since when did “double honor” come to have anything to do with finances? And since when did undergraduate school and seminary become biblical qualification to be a pastor?

[pastor's wife]

(04-06-2011 04:55 PM)Tony R Wrote:  I’m talking about the empire builders who have to have the best of everything and justifying it because it’s “for God’s work”. It makes me sick!

Growing up in a very small church in an area with hardly any other IFB churches around, I never saw this personally, although I've since been told examples of it: pastors with brand new Lincoln Town Cars provided by the church or pastors who take "preaching trips" to exotic locations or on cruise ships and who live in gated communities, while there are people in need in their church and community.

But I guess in my experience (in small churches outside the Bible belt), there are pastors who can't afford to take their kids to the dentist and whose shoes have holes in them. (Of course, now that I'm an ex-fundy, I wish I could encourage those pastors that they're not denying the faith if they stop harping on KJV-only and hymns-only.)

Quote: And since when did undergraduate school and seminary become biblical qualification to be a pastor?

Excellent point! Timothy and Titus both list requirements for a pastor, and unfortunately I've seen pastors who are absolutely unqualified biblically. Very sad.

[pblawman]

(04-06-2011 04:55 PM)Tony R Wrote:  I’m not talking about not providing the man’s NEEDS! I’m talking about the empire builders who have to have the best of everything and justifying it because it’s “for God’s work”.

Obviously there's a lot of room between meeting needs and "the best of everything". I'm suggesting something between the two, but if we are going to err, I'd err on the side of generosity as opposed to parsimony.

(04-06-2011 04:55 PM)Tony R Wrote:  It makes me sick! What is a pastor anyway? (That would make a great thread).

What makes you sick? A pastor being paid at all? Being given anything beyond basic needs? Or a pastor fleecing the congregation? If it's the third, I'd agree. But paying the pastor, and even going beyond basic needs is supported by scripture.

(04-06-2011 04:55 PM)Tony R Wrote:  And since when did “double honor” come to have anything to do with finances?

I think Don answered that. But even without that, the context of the verse is pretty clear that it's talking about paying the pastor.

(04-06-2011 04:55 PM)Tony R Wrote:  And since when did undergraduate school and seminary become biblical qualification to be a pastor?

I never said that it was. But I agree with these men on the subject:

Quote:John MacArthur:

When a man about his life and the impact he wants to have in ministry, he needs to ask himself questions like, “As a minister of the gospel, what is going to take me to the highest level of excellence and effectiveness? As an ambassador for Christ, what will help me be most effective for His kingdom? As a workman who does not want to be ashamed, how can I be best equipped to teach the Scripture?” The answer is to acquire the best and highest level of training that you can. That is what makes seminary so valuable.
The primary goal of a seminary is to train men to handle the Word of God with passion and precision. The church today—and in any age—needs men who are committed to preach the Word, in season and out of season. If pastors are going to be faithful to their calling, they must faithfully teach His Word to His people through the power of His Spirit and for His glory. A man trained at a seminary that is committed to these convictions will be an effective minister of the gospel.

Al Mohler:

There is no real mystery to the value of seminary training. Seminary education is not a substitute for a call to ministry, nor is it more important than character and conviction. The man of God is not made by theological education, and there have been phenomenally faithful and powerful preachers who lacked formal theological education. On the other hand, it is hard to imagine how a man can be satisfied with less theological and biblical education than is available to him. In other words, seminary is not the answer to every need for theological education, but where a faithful seminary education is available, the question clearly shifts to this: Why would I not pursue the most intensive and faithful program of preparation in order that I may faithfully and accurately teach the Word of God? Charles Spurgeon never attended seminary, but he grew up on the Puritan classics and serious works of biblical and systematic theology from the time he was able to read. In his case, the exception proved the rule, for one of his major concerns in ministry was the formation of a pastors college that would train men to do what he so faithfully did week after week—preaching and teaching the Bible to God’s people. My advice to a pastor who is not seminary trained is to gain the greatest level of theological and biblical education that is available to him in his context of life and ministry. Thankfully, this is where the technological revolution has given us some new advantages and opportunities. In reality, there is no one who is outside the reach of truly faithful theological education, whether by Internet, residential study, or other means.

Steve Lawson:

The importance of seminary training can hardly be overstated. It is through such concentrated study of God’s Word that men are trained for the preaching and teaching ministry to which they are called. The study of the original languages, systematic theology, biblical theology, church history, biblical exegesis, Bible exposition, preaching, counseling, and other areas are indispensible for any man in ministry. These academic disciplines are necessary for a lifetime of successful ministry. Certainly, history reveals extraordinary ministers who were self- taught and who never had formal training in a seminary, such as Charles Haddon Spurgeon. But such men are an exception to the norm. Without a formal education, one would need the genius of Spurgeon in order to be self-taught, a gift that few have. To be sure, for the masses, the best way to be best equipped for the ministry is by thorough training in a doctrinally-sound seminary.

[Tony R]

(04-06-2011 05:28 PM)pblawman Wrote:  What makes you sick?

(04-06-2011 04:55 PM)Tony R Wrote:  empire builders who have to have the best of everything and justifying it because it’s “for God’s work”.

[Tony R]

(04-06-2011 05:28 PM)pblawman Wrote:  I agree with these men on the subject:

John MacArthur:

When a man about his life and the impact he wants to have in ministry, he needs to ask himself questions like, “As a minister of the gospel, what is going to take me to the highest level of excellence and effectiveness? As an ambassador for Christ, what will help me be most effective for His kingdom? As a workman who does not want to be ashamed, how can I be best equipped to teach the Scripture?” The answer is to acquire the best and highest level of training that you can. That is what makes seminary so valuable.
The primary goal of a seminary is to train men to handle the Word of God with passion and precision. The church today—and in any age—needs men who are committed to preach the Word, in season and out of season. If pastors are going to be faithful to their calling, they must faithfully teach His Word to His people through the power of His Spirit and for His glory. A man trained at a seminary that is committed to these convictions will be an effective minister of the gospel.

Al Mohler:

There is no real mystery to the value of seminary training. Seminary education is not a substitute for a call to ministry, nor is it more important than character and conviction. The man of God is not made by theological education, and there have been phenomenally faithful and powerful preachers who lacked formal theological education. On the other hand, it is hard to imagine how a man can be satisfied with less theological and biblical education than is available to him. In other words, seminary is not the answer to every need for theological education, but where a faithful seminary education is available, the question clearly shifts to this: Why would I not pursue the most intensive and faithful program of preparation in order that I may faithfully and accurately teach the Word of God? Charles Spurgeon never attended seminary, but he grew up on the Puritan classics and serious works of biblical and systematic theology from the time he was able to read. In his case, the exception proved the rule, for one of his major concerns in ministry was the formation of a pastors college that would train men to do what he so faithfully did week after week—preaching and teaching the Bible to God’s people. My advice to a pastor who is not seminary trained is to gain the greatest level of theological and biblical education that is available to him in his context of life and ministry. Thankfully, this is where the technological revolution has given us some new advantages and opportunities. In reality, there is no one who is outside the reach of truly faithful theological education, whether by Internet, residential study, or other means.

Steve Lawson:

The importance of seminary training can hardly be overstated. It is through such concentrated study of God’s Word that men are trained for the preaching and teaching ministry to which they are called. The study of the original languages, systematic theology, biblical theology, church history, biblical exegesis, Bible exposition, preaching, counseling, and other areas are indispensible for any man in ministry. These academic disciplines are necessary for a lifetime of successful ministry. Certainly, history reveals extraordinary ministers who were self- taught and who never had formal training in a seminary, such as Charles Haddon Spurgeon. But such men are an exception to the norm. Without a formal education, one would need the genius of Spurgeon in order to be self-taught, a gift that few have. To be sure, for the masses, the best way to be best equipped for the ministry is by thorough training in a doctrinally-sound seminary.

I respectfully disagree with you and these men.