God and suffering from "An Inerrant Thread"

[Historian]

(03-18-2011 05:03 PM)Donb123 Wrote:  What's the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?

I have got to learn not to read this forum when I'm drinking coffee. I keep losing it out my nose.

[Historian]

Even if we jettison the entire Old Testament, there is still plenty in the New Testament to give us pause. I don't reject the Old Testament, since I don't think as a human being I have the wisdom to pick and choose through the Bible what is and is not God's Word. But for the sake of this argument, let's do so. For example:

1. How are these passages not teaching that God controls all things? How can they be reconciled with a view of God that does not allow Him to control natural events or human beings?

Eph 1:11 according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will

Matt 5:45 For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

Matt 6:26, 30-33 Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them...But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? Therefore do not be anxious, saying, What shall we eat? or What shall we drink? or What shall we wear? For the Gentiles seek after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

Matt 10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. [I should insert here that the Greek word that is translated here as "apart from" or "without" means the object has an active part. Not simply "seeing it."]

Luke 1:51-52 He has shown strength with his arm; he has scattered the proud in the thoughts of their hearts; he has brought down the mighty from their thrones and exalted those of humble estate;

Acts 17:26, 28 And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place...for in him we live and move and have our being;
Rom 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

I Cor 10:9-13 We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents, nor grumble, as some of them did and were destroyed by the Destroyer. Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come. Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall. No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

Phil 4:19 And my God will supply every need of yours according to his riches in glory in Christ Jesus.

Col 1:16-17 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

There are more, and then there are the multitude of places in the New Testament where God is referred to as the "only Sovereign," the "King," the one who has "dominion forever and ever." What do these verses mean, if God actually controls nothing?

2. How can these verses be reconciled with a view of Jesus as being nothing like the supposedly incorrectly portrayed God in the Old Testament?

Matt 10:27-28; 33-35 What I tell you in the dark, say in the light, and what you hear whispered, proclaim on the housetops. And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell...but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven...Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.

Matt 11:20-24 Then he began to denounce the cities where most of his mighty works had been done, because they did not repent. Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You will be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you.
Matt 25:33, 41 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left....Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

John 5:22-29 The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

II Thess 1:6-9 since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.

Heb 10:26-30 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, Vengeance is mine; I will repay. And again, The Lord will judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Jude 1:5-7; 14-15 Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day—just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, Behold, the Lord came with ten thousands of his holy ones, to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Rev 1:7; 3:8-10 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen....‘I know your works. Behold, I have set before you an open door, which no one is able to shut. I know that you have but little power, and yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9 Behold, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet and they will learn that I have loved you. Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

[oneflewoutofthecuckcoosnest]

Quote:Even if we jettison the entire Old Testament, there is still plenty in the New Testament to give us pause. I don't reject the Old Testament, since I don't think as a human being I have the wisdom to pick and choose through the Bible what is and is not God's Word. But for the sake of this argument, let's do so.

Hi Historian. To begin, I do not jettison the entire OT. I did say that there are things in the OT that I do not believe constitute an inerrant word from God, and that Paul jettisoned large portions of the Torah. You think he was justified. No orthodox Jew would agree with you, and the vast majority of Jews in Paul's day disagreed with Paul. It is an issue of interpretation.

Also, I have really noticed that you gravitate to an all or nothing logic. You imply that since you do not have the wisdom to make judgments about what you will accept or not accept as coming from God in Scripture, you must either accept all of it as from God or none of it as from God. All or nothing thinking is fallacious logic.

Quote:For example:

1. How are these passages not teaching that God controls all things? How can they be reconciled with a view of God that does not allow Him to control natural events or human beings?

Eph 1:11 according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will

Matt 5:45 For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

Matt 6:26, 30-33 Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them...But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? Therefore do not be anxious, saying, What shall we eat? or What shall we drink? or What shall we wear? For the Gentiles seek after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

Matt 10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. [I should insert here that the Greek word that is translated here as "apart from" or "without" means the object has an active part. Not simply "seeing it."]

Luke 1:51-52 He has shown strength with his arm; he has scattered the proud in the thoughts of their hearts; he has brought down the mighty from their thrones and exalted those of humble estate;

Acts 17:26, 28 And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place...for in him we live and move and have our being;
Rom 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

I Cor 10:9-13 We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents, nor grumble, as some of them did and were destroyed by the Destroyer. Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come. Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall. No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

Phil 4:19 And my God will supply every need of yours according to his riches in glory in Christ Jesus.

Col 1:16-17 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

There are more, and then there are the multitude of places in the New Testament where God is referred to as the "only Sovereign," the "King," the one who has "dominion forever and ever." What do these verses mean, if God actually controls nothing?

Once again you are making an all or nothing argument. You are framing it as either God controls everything, and it seems in your definition of this it means God wills everything that happens as some kind of act of causation, or God controls nothing. I do not believe God controls nothing, and I do not recall ever suggesting such a thing. I did say that I do not think God wills a man to beat his kids and cheat on his wife, and when this happens, God is not behind this. Or when a little girl is raped and murdered I do not believe God should be implicated in this in any way - not even as a bystander who could have prevented it but chose to watch it happen, so to speak. Everything God says about such things would suggest that they are abhorrent to God and contrary to God's will. I also said something to the effect that I do not believe God sent the earthquake in Japan anymore than I believe God sent Bill to beat his kids and sleep around on his wife. Both are harmful, destructive and devastating acts - albeit in different ways.

Quote:2. How can these verses be reconciled with a view of Jesus as being nothing like the supposedly incorrectly portrayed God in the Old Testament?

Matt 10:27-28; 33-35 What I tell you in the dark, say in the light, and what you hear whispered, proclaim on the housetops. And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell...but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven...Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.

Matt 11:20-24 Then he began to denounce the cities where most of his mighty works had been done, because they did not repent. Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You will be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you.
Matt 25:33, 41 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left....Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

John 5:22-29 The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

II Thess 1:6-9 since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.

Heb 10:26-30 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, Vengeance is mine; I will repay. And again, The Lord will judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Jude 1:5-7; 14-15 Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day—just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, Behold, the Lord came with ten thousands of his holy ones, to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Rev 1:7; 3:8-10 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen....‘I know your works. Behold, I have set before you an open door, which no one is able to shut. I know that you have but little power, and yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9 Behold, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet and they will learn that I have loved you. Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

These are certainly hard verses. I would want to say first of all that none of them, at least to me, fall into the same category as genocide, slave beating, executing raped girls etc. At the same time, yes, there are things in these scriptures I find disturbing. This requires quite a long answer and explanation of my position, which I cannot begin to give. Actually, I had posted a reply that included some of my thoughts on this, but deleted it as I thought it might do more harm than good in the end, which is not my intent. I am still thinking over what is worth saying.

Appreciate your thoughts. God Bless

[Historian]

(03-23-2011 09:33 PM)oneflewoutofthecuckcoosnest Wrote:  [quote]Even if we jettison the entire Old Testament, there is still plenty in the New Testament to give us pause. I don't reject the Old Testament, since I don't think as a human being I have the wisdom to pick and choose through the Bible what is and is not God's Word. But for the sake of this argument, let's do so.

(03-23-2011 09:33 PM)oneflewoutofthecuckcoosnest Wrote:  Hi Historian. To begin, I do not jettison the entire OT.

I'm sorry, I didn't express myself well. I didn't mean to imply this. My meaning was only that we don't need to argue over which parts of the OT are true and which are not when it comes to proving that God is sovereign and that Jesus Christ judges. The NT teaches them, too. Since this thread wasn't dealing with inerrancy, I thought for the interests of avoiding that kind of debate to stick to NT passages that address the issues brought up in the thread.

(03-23-2011 09:33 PM)oneflewoutofthecuckcoosnest Wrote:  Also, I have really noticed that you gravitate to an all or nothing logic. You imply that since you do not have the wisdom to make judgments about what you will accept or not accept as coming from God in Scripture, you must either accept all of it as from God or none of it as from God. All or nothing thinking is fallacious logic.

That's absolutely correct. All or nothing statements can be a false dichotomy. They are not always so, but they frequently are.

I believe the positions stated by some in this thread (and I was addressing others in this thread as well) leave God in control of nothing. Please explain to me what it is that God does control? You have stated that human beings are able to act without His control, specifically to sin, and "Nor would I say God allowed it to happen, i.e. that God could have stopped it but choose to stand by and let it happen, so to speak. Whenever some sinful act is committed, I would as a rule take the position that this was not God's will or part of God's plan in the sense that God planned it." So God does not control the actions of rational creatures.

Further, you and others have stated that he did not, for example, send the earthquake and tsunami recently suffered in Japan. So God does not control irrational forces or creatures.

Is there something else in the universe that I'm missing?

I would also be very interested to know, as you are able to answer (I don't mean "able" as in "my logic and is so powerful that you can't," but only "able" in the sense that you have time and inclination ) how your views of God's relationship to the actions of humans and animals, and the events of nature line up with the Bible's express declaration that He works all things according the the council of His will and that He is the only Sovereign? How can such a being call Himself God or Sovereign with any honesty?

And if I've misunderstood or misstated your position in any way, please do tell me.

Cheers!

[oneflewoutofthecuckcoosnest]

(03-24-2011 08:25 AM)Historian Wrote:  [quote='oneflewoutofthecuckcoosnest' pid='12703' dateline='1300934019']

Quote:Even if we jettison the entire Old Testament, there is still plenty in the New Testament to give us pause. I don't reject the Old Testament, since I don't think as a human being I have the wisdom to pick and choose through the Bible what is and is not God's Word. But for the sake of this argument, let's do so.

(03-23-2011 09:33 PM)oneflewoutofthecuckcoosnest Wrote:  Hi Historian. To begin, I do not jettison the entire OT.

I'm sorry, I didn't express myself well. I didn't mean to imply this. My meaning was only that we don't need to argue over which parts of the OT are true and which are not when it comes to proving that God is sovereign and that Jesus Christ judges. The NT teaches them, too. Since this thread wasn't dealing with inerrancy, I thought for the interests of avoiding that kind of debate to stick to NT passages that address the issues brought up in the thread.

(03-23-2011 09:33 PM)oneflewoutofthecuckcoosnest Wrote:  Also, I have really noticed that you gravitate to an all or nothing logic. You imply that since you do not have the wisdom to make judgments about what you will accept or not accept as coming from God in Scripture, you must either accept all of it as from God or none of it as from God. All or nothing thinking is fallacious logic.

That's absolutely correct. All or nothing statements can be a false dichotomy. They are not always so, but they frequently are.

I believe the positions stated by some in this thread (and I was addressing others in this thread as well) leave God in control of nothing. Please explain to me what it is that God does control? You have stated that human beings are able to act without His control, specifically to sin, and "Nor would I say God allowed it to happen, i.e. that God could have stopped it but choose to stand by and let it happen, so to speak. Whenever some sinful act is committed, I would as a rule take the position that this was not God's will or part of God's plan in the sense that God planned it." So God does not control the actions of rational creatures.

Further, you and others have stated that he did not, for example, send the earthquake and tsunami recently suffered in Japan. So God does not control irrational forces or creatures.

Is there something else in the universe that I'm missing?

I would also be very interested to know, as you are able to answer (I don't mean "able" as in "my logic and is so powerful that you can't," but only "able" in the sense that you have time and inclination ) how your views of God's relationship to the actions of humans and animals, and the events of nature line up with the Bible's express declaration that He works all things according the the council of His will and that He is the only Sovereign? How can such a being call Himself God or Sovereign with any honesty?

And if I've misunderstood or misstated your position in any way, please do tell me.

Cheers!

Hi Historian,

Well, we have worked our way to semantics. Before I can proceed with an answer regarding what I think God controls, I need to know exactly what you mean by the word control. Does this mean cause? Does it carry the thought of approval or endorsement? Does it mean allow? If so, in what sense? Allow as in God wants it to happen as part of a larger plan? Or allow in the sense that God doesn't want it to happen but let's it happen anyway? Please give me a good sense of what you mean by God controls something.

Once we are on the same page with respect to how we are using these terms, we can explore the issues you raise with respect to God's sovereignty.

God Bless