The Harry Potter Thread

[Darrell]

Quote: do they conjure up the dead at all for anything in the series

You mean kind of like the Dead Men of Dunharrow?

[Don]

Zombies! I hate Zombies...

[supernova8610]

(03-16-2011 04:08 PM)Darrell Wrote:  

Quote: do they conjure up the dead at all for anything in the series

You mean kind of like the Dead Men of Dunharrow?

Technically, they had failed to protect their leader (I think the King of Gondor at the time... it's been a while since I read LotR, so my knowledge is a bit rusty) in a time of need during battle, so their leader cursed them to never die/to never be able to fully depart from Middle Earth until they fulfilled their obligation. They finally did when Aragorn summoned them to assist him in the battle at the Pelennor fields in front of Minas Tirith (but before that, they had been at Dunharrow, guarding the path of the dead, not allowing any living creature to pass).

Edit: Should I start an LotR thread? lol

[Perry]

When I was little my mom would actually read my brother and me Harry Potter books as a bedtime story (I think only one or two were out then). I used to love it, but as I grew older it stopped interesting me. I don't have a problem with it as long as the reader is mature enough to handle it. Several leaders at my fundy church (including the pastor's wife) were "secret" fans as well, and at my fundy Christian school if someone wanted to read HP/Twilight for a book report project it was okay as long as the English teacher first discussed with them that it was merely fiction.

My brother is still a fan, and he has just about all the books.

[greg]

How about a Left Behind thread?

[supernova8610]

(03-16-2011 05:27 PM)greg Wrote:  How about a Left Behind thread?

I'll let you start that one

[Jenni]

(03-16-2011 04:49 PM)Perry Wrote:  When I was little my mom would actually read my brother and me Harry Potter books as a bedtime story (I think only one or two were out then). I used to love it, but as I grew older it stopped interesting me. I don't have a problem with it as long as the reader is mature enough to handle it. Several leaders at my fundy church (including the pastor's wife) were "secret" fans as well, and at my fundy Christian school if someone wanted to read HP/Twilight for a book report project it was okay as long as the English teacher first discussed with them that it was merely fiction.

My brother is still a fan, and he has just about all the books.

I love "closet" HP fans. There were several at my last IFB church.

[Lizzy F.]

On the other thread, someone mentioned that there was a "superiority complex" towards Muggles that all the characters shared, regardless of whether they were good or bad.

I'm curious...Does this bother you in other British stuff?

Doctor Who has a superiority complex towards humans at times and the humans themselves are portrayed as dumb and unable to defend themselves against attacks on earth. It's worse in the new series because UNIT is portrayed as a bunch of bumbling morons.

In another series of books, The Changes trilogy by Peter Dickinson, the children frequently disobey authority because there's a curse on the land and the adults are superstitious and afraid of anything that's mechanical. The children save a man from being stoned as a witch, escape, and disregard everything the "authority" says in order to do what's right. The books aren't well known, but they made a TV series based on it in the 70's.

And it The Golden Compass[i/] the girl's parents are psychotic child murderers, so her obeying them is out of the question.

Lewis cheats in Narnia. The children don't act any different against authority, but the only other "human" authority is an evil witch that's also a murderer, so their disobedience is OK. Lewis minimizes it by giving an authority over the children, but a Lion isn't the same as a normal authority figure (like a parent, teacher, police officer, etc). In fact, the only reason that all the kinds end up in Narnia is because they're snooping around the house and trying to avoid getting caught by the housekeeper.

In [i]The Borrowers[i] (a story about tiny people living in human houses), Arietty disobeys her parents by talking to a human and finds out the humans aren't the evil things that her parents have portrayed them to be. Her disobedience ends up saving their lives when the human "authorities" try to kill them.

In [i]The Secret Garden and A Little Princess the authorities are generally horrible. The parents either die or are neglectful and the adults left generally are mean and abusive.

So, this idea is in lot of other British books, but people don't seem to object to them with nearly the same vehemence as Harry Potter.

Thoughts?

[pastor's wife]

@Lizzy F., I think you might be confusing two different issues here: 1) some people dislike the sense of class in books - that some people just are better or more worthy than others based on birth alone and 2) some people dislike portraying disobedience to authority in books.

The Dr. Who example illustrated the "superiority complex" issue, but the other examples seem more focused on issue #2. The example about the Borrowers illustrates both issues: Arietty does choose to disobey her parents (issue #2), but the way all borrowers viewed all humans as evil is more what we're referring to in issue #1.

I definitely think that it's silly to dislike Harry Potter because he doesn't follow the rules and not dislike all the other books where children also disobey rules, have incredible adventures, and still end up pretty much "happily ever after." I think underlying this is a huge difference in child-rearing philosophy: should children be taught instant obedience or should children learn to evaluate what their authorites tell them? Christians tend to push the first one, but then expect their children to have discernment when they reach adulthood, without really ever letting them learn to practice discernment. Gothard teaching on the umbrella of protection definitely emphasizes obedience as being of primary importance, and certainly Scripture tells us that children are to obey their parents and that Christians are to obey "them that have the rule over you." Obedience is important, but so is protecting those you love. Sometimes life doesn't present us with easy choices. I suppose Harry Potter could have just stayed in bed every night and never snuck around Hogwarts; he would have kept the rules, but Voldemort would have probably ended up killing him and taking over the world. And that wouldn't be very interesting to read about. Sometimes life presents difficult choices. If a parent values obedience above all else, they will dislike Harry Potter and wish that the book presented wise and unflawed teachers who deserved to be obeyed because they had already anticipated every possible attempted of incursion of evil into Hogwarts and were fully taking care of the children. Of course, in real life as well as in Harry's world, none of us are omniscient or completely pure of motive. Sometimes children do have to question the assumptions of their parents or teachers.

The first issue is a separate one. It involves a sort of class structure that assumes that Muggles are below wizards, rather foolish and helpless, who need to be deceived and tricked because they just can't "handle" the truth of the reality of magic. Frances Hodgson Burnett certainly conveys a clear class structure in her stories: it's why Mary Lennox could never marry Dickon but only Collin and why Becky is still Sara's servant at the end, albeit a well-loved and well-treated one. The Christian books of Grace Livingston Hill are VERY class conscious, as well. That idea that you are better than someone else simply because you were born into a certain family or because of your bloodline is something most Americans today would reject and rightly so. Certainly we're all equal before the cross and in the eyes of God.

[Darrell]

I just finished the first book. I have not (as far as I know) become a Satanist because of it.

That's all I have to report.