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bean · 01-05-2012, 10:58 PM

That IS the express method, isn't it Emily! Smile

(01-05-2012 07:49 PM)EmilyKing Wrote: I went to boot camp less than a week after graduated HAC. I'll call that the Express Deprogramming Method.
(Then again, I went to public school as a kid, so I wasn't completely blind to the outside world.)

Ricardo · 01-06-2012, 12:13 AM

In my case, going to Divinity School was the fastest way out. I was already sick and tired of having to depend on the minister to tell me what a passage really meant, rather than my own analysis. Because he kept jumping all around from one text to another. When I finally was able to read his sermons, and go back to the original text of the sermon, it was embarrasingly clear he had pretty much used the text as a springboard to proof-text whatever he really wanted to tell us to do.

When you find out that your pastors knew all along about the problems with the Johannine Comma, about how many of the Pauline books are now considered NOT written by Paul, the problems with the last thirteen verses of Mark, AND YET, continued preaching about this here book I hold in my hand as if it were the complete and inerrant Word of God.

When you find out about how the five major canons were decided upon, the backstabbing and politicking at the church councils. How can we declare ANY of their decisions as Inerrant?

When you find out about Textual Criticism. When you try your hand at selecting Texts. Check out this exercise: http://legacy.earlham.edu/~seidti/iam/exercise.html (DON'T look at the original until you have REALLY looked at each one of the four Codexes.)

When you REALLY take a look at what the so-called Heretics were preaching, what the circumstances were that precipitated the various schisms. (How could anyone debate, with a straight face, whether the Father is of the same essence as the Son. (How would anyone know?)

When you study Greek and Hebrew and realize how hard it is to really understand the original, How much harder it is to translate "Holy" texts.

When you go back to churches and hear sermon after sermon misquoting Greek and Hebrew, taking verses out of context, clearly misunderstanding the cultural background of scriptural times. A vast majority of the sermons I hear on any given Sunday, would NOT receive passing grades if reviewed academically.

It was a HUGE crisis for me to throw out all things scholarly. I loved them. (still do.)

What is left?

There is an experience that surpasses all understanding. Totally and completely subjective.

Even today, in this Forum, I get called out for not being objective, for not having an Inerrant source of TRUTH.

All I can say is: "You are right." My experience is totally subjective. But my experience is rock solid when compared to the basis for canons, texts, translations and interpretations, all of which come to us via the just as imperfect traditions of The Church.

I'm amazed how we can just pick up a one year-old thread and continue it as if no time has passed.

**Tiarali** · 01-06-2012, 06:58 AM

I kind of pretty much threw everything out, then decided I didn't have enough energy to clean up the mess. I have faith in God, but that's about it.

How could he love me and let everything that's happened to me happen? How could he love me, then let the evil men prosper? How could he love me when I can see the rest of my life stretching ahead of me and it's lonely and hard. It's not going to get any better and there's no end in sight.

I know that technically God loves me. But it's kind of hard to believe it in actuality. Like a child whose father died when they were an infant might KNOW that her father loved her, but sees another child being hugged by her Dad and knows she's missing out.

My fundy friend was messaging me on fb. I've been pretty quiet lately. It's not that I haven't been spamming my wall - I do that well, but I've been doing a good job of keeping things impersonal. So, she wants to know, how's my life going. My real life. Apparently SFL doesn't count. Dang. Who knew. So I pretty much told her I was depressed and had nothing in my real life that was worth talking about. So now she's calling me tomorrow. Apparently. I don't know what I'll say. It would be easier to just get her to talk, but really her life involves her work and her fundy church - which I do NOT want to hear about. She's a good friend to check up on me though.

I'm not sure what I was supposed to be talking about before I got lost.

Umm. My relationship with God. I'm not sure what I believe anymore. I'm very sure that the rules of fundydom go out the door. Also I'm very sure that the patriarchal stuff goes out the door. I don't know what God meant when the bible says for women to be silent and submissive, but I KNOW my daddy didn't want me to be abused, and that's how patriarchal churches use those sorts of teachings. I don't know what else. I also don't want to be silent about abuse. About private matters, about personal squabbles - sure. I don't like gossip. But abuse of power and abuse by those in power is the exception.

I'm a mess. I know that God loves me anyway but I don't really believe that.

bean · 01-06-2012, 08:02 AM

Tiarali, read "The Shack."
You will not be disappointed. It is one of the most transformative books I have ever read. Period.

**exOBCstudent** · 01-06-2012, 09:22 AM

I also took the "Express Deprogramming Route" like Emily (both AF and Army imagine that!) although strangely enough it didn't get me completely out but it was a start. I finally watched the Eagle video from yesterday's post when I got home last night and it set off very long forgotten IFB nightmares for me. Also it just so happened that my old IFB church had videos linked to that video which played afterwards and even made things much worse...seeing folks I haven't been able to in years. Undecided

The depression really got to me last night and promted a long talk with my wife about these things she still doesn't understand about the IFB. I might as well be speaking German to her. The only ways I can deprogram effectively are to let everything Fundy in me die. All of my old contacts who now are my critics, the activities I could/couldn't do before, and even the music I spent years perfecting on the piano must be replaced. It's just to freakin hard to get the fundy out of my life! Angry

Holidays are bitter-sweet because all my memories involve in some way other church folks we used to spend them with. I feel like I'm still at the crossroads of this new fundy-free chapter in my life wondering which path to take for hapiness. We need new friends, fellowship, and activities which I feel totally socially inept to find.

I really wish PW's church was near our area so we could find some folks who understand what it's like being a victim of the IFB. Maybe some of you folks can move closer to us in east Florida! Big Grin

I seriously wonder if I'll ever be competely deprogrammed.

**pastor's wife** · 01-06-2012, 09:28 AM

(01-06-2012 06:58 AM)tiarali Wrote: How could he love me and let everything that's happened to me happen? How could he love me, then let the evil men prosper?

Oh, tiarali. I can't imagine the pain and loss you're going through. I pray that God will restore to you the years the locusts have eaten and that He will give you beauty for ashes and replace your mourning with dancing.

I believe that the pain and ugliness you're experiencing is from sin and it's why Jesus died, to pay the price for sin and to eventually destroy it completely. Someday all tears will be wiped away; until then creation groans for His redemption. He SEES our pain and it breaks His heart. This was NOT what He wanted for us.

Quote: I KNOW my daddy didn't want me to be abused,

I agree! Jesus' first public declaration was when He read aloud in the synagogue the passage from Isaiah: "The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor." (Luke 4)

I LOVE this song. It speaks of both indescribable pain as well as stubborn trust:

Actually that WHOLE album is very powerful. "Questions" is very quiet; the words convey both trust and doubt.

Forgive me for being so presumptuous as to speak to your situation! If what I wrote is hurtful not helpful, please just disregard it! God bless!

**Tiarali** · 01-06-2012, 09:33 AM

PW, you have been so lovely here on the forums, I don't think I could ever be mad at you.

**Tiarali** · 01-07-2012, 08:03 AM

I bought The Shack this afternoon and read it. I don't think I've ever really cried while reading a book before. I haven't actually cried much at all really, considering. Don't know that I'm ready to let My Great Sadness go, but I'm glad I read it.

Thank you.

bean · 01-07-2012, 09:03 AM

I'm glad you had a chance to read it.
I'm not a big fiction reader, and not into "sad" stories. It was a book that really spoke to me. Not many books do that.
What I really liked about it was how it challenged man made constructions of religion and got down to God's love for us. I don't think we can even really fully understand...but one day we will all "get it." I cried too, and I never cry!

It was a book I really needed to read. I was getting so tired of a lot of what organized religion was offering. Rules. Be good. Listen. God hates disobedience. God will punish you for doing ______. God caused ______ to happen to wake you up. God allowed ______ to happen. It really helped changing churches and hearing GRACE preached on Sunday morning. That has been such a breath of fresh air for me. I am again at the point of wanting to be in the presence of God..be it in my church on Sunday or out for a run... But this book was an important step for me..

And what authoritarian religion says about God is NOT the way it is. I believe that God doesn't cause or allow tragedies. God will pursue us endlessly and relentlessly to wake us up to his love! I also think that some people in organized religion have built up the system, the man preaching, the building, the rules, the structure and that has replaced God's love.

Glad you read it. I hope your "great sadness" will eventually leave.

**Tiarali** · (This post was last modified: 01-07-2012 09:15 AM by Tiarali.)

You know how trying to have a real argument with a fundy about serious issues is like banging your head against a brick wall? Like that discussion about Driscoll's book? (Which I left a couple of days ago, and I refuse to go back, but anyway).

You can argue back and forth over whether or not you can take some good out of that way of doing things. Fundydom, Driscoll, whatever.

Or you can look at God and realise that those arguments don't matter at all. The issue didn't matter. Look at God and those things seem silly.

If that makes sense. Relationship. That's what I won't get from any of Driscoll's books, even if he's writes more than any other author. Relationship. Love. The real God. You don't find that in fundydom. Why argue over the biblical value of their rules? Stop it. Relationship.

I know this post doesn't really make sense. It's after midnight, I'm tired, and I've just read the shack, so my thoughts aren't very coherent right now. I'm feeling more than thinking. I need to read it (after the first few chapters) again I think. But I'm hoping I can get some friends to borrow it first.