Sanctification

[exIFB]

I don't know what people think Keswick is, but yeah, I deny I actually believe those things, since I have learnt a lot from several authors, such as Watchman Nee and Miles Stanford.

As far as I understand it, Sanctification is complete at the moment of salvation - Hebrews says this - we are perfected forever by His sacrifice. However, until we start to actually realise this, and see who we are in Christ, that we are accepted then our lives won't necessarily reflect our true state.

What it means in practice is that there is no practice - there is nothing you can do to be more sanctified - the principle is "be ye holy for I am holy". He is Holy, so stop being sinful and be holy (In fact, He has already made us perfect, righteous, made free from sin, slaves to righteousness, dead to the law, dead to sin, alive unto Him etc etc - Romans 6). Stop struggling, and be. Stop fighting sin and just let God deal with it. It's bearing fruit without effort. Whenever I say this, people always so "so, what you are saying is don't worry about sin, sin all you want and it will be fine". No, that's a half truth, what I am saying is "Don't worry about sin, God will sanctify you as you trust him. Do you want to stop sinning? Then stop trying to stop and let God do it for you". Believers seem to think without some kind of law or effort on their part, God will fail in His work of sanctification. The truth is, everything God sets out to accomplish, He will, so stop getting in the way! The next question is inevitable "So, you never sin anymore". Of course I do. Galatians 2:20 is true, but that truth won't affect me if I don't believe it. When I doubt, that is when I sin. When I don't believe I am accepted, or loved by God, I sin. When I don't believe God is big enough to overcome a temptation, I sin. The key is believing the truth. When I believe right, God overcomes. When I believe wrong, I sin.

There is no "second work" of sanctification (Miles Stanford addresses this in his green letters and red letters book as a common misconception about the "Deeper Life"). Rather, it is an understanding and rest in the complete work of salvation and sanctification that Christ accomplished, resting in Him as our source of life. People want to DO something, PRACTICE something, have something that WORKS for them, but the fact is, the only thing that works in us is God, we just get in the way. Let go and Let God aptly describes the type of life I believe God wants us to have - total dependence on Him for everything.

In contrast to Fundamentalists - their theology is DO DO DO in order to BE. God wants us to BE in order for Him to DO.

Not sure if that makes sense to others

In a slightly related note, I think we do the gospel a great injustice when we go around weeping and crying and moaning over our struggles with sin, living out Romans 7, as though Romans 8 doesn't exist. Romans 8 describes what should be normal for every believer. Don't get me wrong, I fall back and forth between the two, but I see that Romans 8 is where I should be - letting God have victory. When I start condemning myself, worrying about my performance, I fall back under Romans 7 and get distressed again. Romans 7 is not normal for a Christian, although I'd say every Christian needs to go through it to find the end of themself.

---

The Keswick teaching, which is not the same as the Holiness pentecostal/Wesleyan teaching (the former teaches a reliance on God as the source of holiness and that it is not an "attainable" thing, but rather a present possession every believer has, whereas the latter teaches it along the lines of "second blessing" - something attainable).

Keswick did not originate in America, but England, in the 1870's, associated with the Plymouth Brethren.

There is a good page here by one it's supporters - he explains where it lost it's good points, and is now a podium for ill informed speakers.

http://withchrist.org/mjs/idhistory.htm

[captain_solo]

(01-07-2011 03:18 PM)exIFB Wrote:  I don't know what people think Keswick is, but yeah, I deny I actually believe those things, since I have learnt a lot from several authors, such as Watchman Nee and Miles Stanford.

As far as I understand it, Sanctification is complete at the moment of salvation - Hebrews says this - we are perfected forever by His sacrifice. However, until we start to actually realise this, and see who we are in Christ, that we are accepted then our lives won't necessarily reflect our true state.

What it means in practice is that there is no practice - there is nothing you can do to be more sanctified - the principle is "be ye holy for I am holy". He is Holy, so stop being sinful and be holy (In fact, He has already made us perfect, righteous, made free from sin, slaves to righteousness, dead to the law, dead to sin, alive unto Him etc etc - Romans 6). Stop struggling, and be. Stop fighting sin and just let God deal with it. It's bearing fruit without effort. Whenever I say this, people always so "so, what you are saying is don't worry about sin, sin all you want and it will be fine". No, that's a half truth, what I am saying is "Don't worry about sin, God will sanctify you as you trust him. Do you want to stop sinning? Then stop trying to stop and let God do it for you". Believers seem to think without some kind of law or effort on their part, God will fail in His work of sanctification. The truth is, everything God sets out to accomplish, He will, so stop getting in the way! The next question is inevitable "So, you never sin anymore". Of course I do. Galatians 2:20 is true, but that truth won't affect me if I don't believe it. When I doubt, that is when I sin. When I don't believe I am accepted, or loved by God, I sin. When I don't believe God is big enough to overcome a temptation, I sin. The key is believing the truth. When I believe right, God overcomes. When I believe wrong, I sin.

There is no "second work" of sanctification (Miles Stanford addresses this in his green letters and red letters book as a common misconception about the "Deeper Life"). Rather, it is an understanding and rest in the complete work of salvation and sanctification that Christ accomplished, resting in Him as our source of life. People want to DO something, PRACTICE something, have something that WORKS for them, but the fact is, the only thing that works in us is God, we just get in the way. Let go and Let God aptly describes the type of life I believe God wants us to have - total dependence on Him for everything.

In contrast to Fundamentalists - their theology is DO DO DO in order to BE. God wants us to BE in order for Him to DO.

Not sure if that makes sense to others

In a slightly related note, I think we do the gospel a great injustice when we go around weeping and crying and moaning over our struggles with sin, living out Romans 7, as though Romans 8 doesn't exist. Romans 8 describes what should be normal for every believer. Don't get me wrong, I fall back and forth between the two, but I see that Romans 8 is where I should be - letting God have victory. When I start condemning myself, worrying about my performance, I fall back under Romans 7 and get distressed again. Romans 7 is not normal for a Christian, although I'd say every Christian needs to go through it to find the end of themself.

---

The Keswick teaching, which is not the same as the Holiness pentecostal/Wesleyan teaching (the former teaches a reliance on God as the source of holiness and that it is not an "attainable" thing, but rather a present possession every believer has, whereas the latter teaches it along the lines of "second blessing" - something attainable).

Keswick did not originate in America, but England, in the 1870's, associated with the Plymouth Brethren.

There is a good page here by one it's supporters - he explains where it lost it's good points, and is now a podium for ill informed speakers.

http://withchrist.org/mjs/idhistory.htm

Yeah, Keswick was going on at the same time as the holiness pentecostal stuff here, there was some influence both ways. The name comes from the conferences in Keswick in the U.K. I was just highlighting some of the common failings. Keswick contradicts itself so much its hard to figure out what it actually is.

I agree with your thoughts, its the only conclusion that you can come to from the text. We have been sanctified, its connected so much to the concept of justification and even election in the scriptures that it seems obvious to me that they are connected. But then you have Hebrews 10:14 where both past and present action are ascribed. There is a present component, but it seems to be like you said, the realization of what is done for us in Christ is the beginning of walking worthy of that which we are called to.

[Soli Deo Gloria]

Quote:People want to DO something, PRACTICE something, have something that WORKS for them, but the fact is, the only thing that works in us is God, we just get in the way. Let go and Let God aptly describes the type of life I believe God wants us to have - total dependence on Him for everything.

From the New Hampshire Baptist Confession (1833)
"We believe that Sanctification is the process by which, according to the will of God, we are made partakers of his holiness; that it is a progressive work; that it is begun in regeneration; and that it is carried on in the hearts of believers by the presence and power of the Holy Spirit, the Sealer and Comforter, in the continual use of the appointed means—especially the Word of God, self-examination, self-denial, watchfulness, and prayer."

I interpret this as meaning that the Spirit sanctifies through the Word and Spiritual disciplines like prayer, but my own effort (i.e. legalism/fundy rule-keeping) does not affect the speed of my sanctification since it depends on the Holy Spirit not my own effort.

[Tony Mel]

(01-07-2011 03:18 PM)exIFB Wrote:  I don't know what people think Keswick is, but yeah, I deny I actually believe those things, since I have learnt a lot from several authors, such as Watchman Nee and Miles Stanford.

As far as I understand it, Sanctification is complete at the moment of salvation - Hebrews says this - we are perfected forever by His sacrifice. However, until we start to actually realise this, and see who we are in Christ, that we are accepted then our lives won't necessarily reflect our true state.

What it means in practice is that there is no practice - there is nothing you can do to be more sanctified - the principle is "be ye holy for I am holy". He is Holy, so stop being sinful and be holy (In fact, He has already made us perfect, righteous, made free from sin, slaves to righteousness, dead to the law, dead to sin, alive unto Him etc etc - Romans 6). Stop struggling, and be. Stop fighting sin and just let God deal with it. It's bearing fruit without effort. Whenever I say this, people always so "so, what you are saying is don't worry about sin, sin all you want and it will be fine". No, that's a half truth, what I am saying is "Don't worry about sin, God will sanctify you as you trust him. Do you want to stop sinning? Then stop trying to stop and let God do it for you". Believers seem to think without some kind of law or effort on their part, God will fail in His work of sanctification. The truth is, everything God sets out to accomplish, He will, so stop getting in the way! The next question is inevitable "So, you never sin anymore". Of course I do. Galatians 2:20 is true, but that truth won't affect me if I don't believe it. When I doubt, that is when I sin. When I don't believe I am accepted, or loved by God, I sin. When I don't believe God is big enough to overcome a temptation, I sin. The key is believing the truth. When I believe right, God overcomes. When I believe wrong, I sin.

There is no "second work" of sanctification (Miles Stanford addresses this in his green letters and red letters book as a common misconception about the "Deeper Life"). Rather, it is an understanding and rest in the complete work of salvation and sanctification that Christ accomplished, resting in Him as our source of life. People want to DO something, PRACTICE something, have something that WORKS for them, but the fact is, the only thing that works in us is God, we just get in the way. Let go and Let God aptly describes the type of life I believe God wants us to have - total dependence on Him for everything.

In contrast to Fundamentalists - their theology is DO DO DO in order to BE. God wants us to BE in order for Him to DO.

Not sure if that makes sense to others

In a slightly related note, I think we do the gospel a great injustice when we go around weeping and crying and moaning over our struggles with sin, living out Romans 7, as though Romans 8 doesn't exist. Romans 8 describes what should be normal for every believer. Don't get me wrong, I fall back and forth between the two, but I see that Romans 8 is where I should be - letting God have victory. When I start condemning myself, worrying about my performance, I fall back under Romans 7 and get distressed again. Romans 7 is not normal for a Christian, although I'd say every Christian needs to go through it to find the end of themself.

---

The Keswick teaching, which is not the same as the Holiness pentecostal/Wesleyan teaching (the former teaches a reliance on God as the source of holiness and that it is not an "attainable" thing, but rather a present possession every believer has, whereas the latter teaches it along the lines of "second blessing" - something attainable).

Keswick did not originate in America, but England, in the 1870's, associated with the Plymouth Brethren.

There is a good page here by one it's supporters - he explains where it lost it's good points, and is now a podium for ill informed speakers.

http://withchrist.org/mjs/idhistory.htm

I agree with you. Also, it is worth noting that we do "grow in grace and in the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ," "adding to our faith virtue (...)". As God works in us the fruit of the Spirit, we will outwardly demonstrate growth. But, as Steve Brown correctly points out, we become better when we stop trying to become better. We really "let go and let God" work in us.

[lighthousebwk]

(01-07-2011 02:02 PM)Tony Mel Wrote:  

(01-07-2011 01:55 PM)lighthousebwk Wrote:  I was just reading Watchman Nee's book The Normal Christian Life on the subject of sanctification today. He said, "God's means of delivering us from sin is not making us stronger and stronger, but by making us weaker and weaker. That is surely rather a peculiar way of victory, you say; but it is the divine way. God sets us free from the dominion of sin, not by strengthening our old man but by crucifying him; not by helping him to do anything but by removing him from the scene of action."

What would this mean in practice?

That is the great question that I am still considering. There are times when I read men like Nee, Bonhoeffer, etc., and I have to spend more time thinking about what they said in the light of the Scriptures than actually reading their writings.
Hope you don't think I bailed out on the question, but I am not sure how to apply this practically still.

[Tony Mel]

(01-09-2011 09:07 AM)lighthousebwk Wrote:  

(01-07-2011 02:02 PM)Tony Mel Wrote:  

(01-07-2011 01:55 PM)lighthousebwk Wrote:  I was just reading Watchman Nee's book The Normal Christian Life on the subject of sanctification today. He said, "God's means of delivering us from sin is not making us stronger and stronger, but by making us weaker and weaker. That is surely rather a peculiar way of victory, you say; but it is the divine way. God sets us free from the dominion of sin, not by strengthening our old man but by crucifying him; not by helping him to do anything but by removing him from the scene of action."

What would this mean in practice?

That is the great question that I am still considering. There are times when I read men like Nee, Bonhoeffer, etc., and I have to spend more time thinking about what they said in the light of the Scriptures than actually reading their writings.
Hope you don't think I bailed out on the question, but I am not sure how to apply this practically still.

That's understandable- I am learning myself.