beliefs?

[Faith]

(01-04-2011 10:26 PM)steviusthedevious Wrote:  i see how God is working even though i don't understand.

That is a good way to know it's God.

[LMcC]

(01-04-2011 10:09 PM)Katerpillar Wrote:  

(01-04-2011 09:38 PM)Faith Wrote:  

(01-04-2011 09:29 PM)Katerpillar Wrote:  One thing I'm confused about, is that you claim that you are really a woman, but you were obviously born physically a boy. Can you find Scripture to prove that sometimes God makes the mistake of putting a woman in a man's body?

Nope.

As to why I think God might allow such a thing to happen, see John 9:1-2

That's a case of a man being born with a disability. If a woman is born in a man's body, that wouldn't be a disability, that would seem to be a curse, since the Bible makes it very clear that a man is not supposed to have sex with another man.

The Bible doesn't acknowledge of a lot of things. The Bible never mentions spina bifida and autism, yet my nephew has both. It never mentions costochondritis, yet I've been talking with a friend whose mother was just diagnosed and giving her tips I've learned through experience.

The Bible does not acknowledge that some people are born intersexed. I have known at least three people who were born with ambiguous gentialia. (No, I didn't go look.) The Bible never tells people what to do when the doctor or midwife cannot easily say "it's a boy" or "it's a girl". Simply whacking out the inconvenient bits and reorganizing them ASAP after the birth is not always the right answer, either. What if the doctor or parents choose the wrong sex? Then what for the kid?

Where the Bible is silent and the situation is definitely out of the control of all involved, it's time for grace.

[elfdream]

We know so little about this sort of thing. Research is being done all the time but there is evidence that trans/gendered/sexual people do have concrete differences in brain make up and brain chemistry. If we don't agree/believe/understand them completely we can at the very least we show them some compassion. We all have things we struggle and have to learn to deal with in our lives.

[Smith]

Knowing that there is nothing I can do about my basement flooding until Friday...I think I'll weigh in on this again.

Not that Faith needs my validation, but I can say that after spending a good amount of time speaking with her last evening, I can honestly say this is the very FIRST time I've been thoroughly convinced that someone was convinved about their identity. And you know what? God knows, and that's fine with me because I'm not her judge...besides, methinks its pretty impressive that a chick knows her way around a truck engine.

Kate, I understand where you are coming from but asking for "scripture" to prove something you KNOW can only be an issue of the heart isn't an honest inquiry, in my humble opinion...that would be like asking me for "Scripture" to "prove why I have to take my Paxil", which if you catch me on the right day, I would probably clean the sleepies out of my eye with my middle finger"...that is, if you were a guy.

Also, think about this, WHAT IF someone had an identity change like Faith has and they "got saved" in a Fundy church, what do you think the reception would be? It's not like they could (or would want to) just snap their fingers and BOOM! Cloud of smoke! They're a guy again! No, you must deal with people where they are NOW, not where we think they SHOULD BE...these are real people with real longings, real flesh and at the resurrection, God will deal with everything. In the meantime, you have people that have made, what they feel, are the best choices for themselves and if they are redeemed, they have the Holy Spirit indwelling in them...now what? Are they your brothers and sisters in the Lord or not? Reading from one of Faith's earlier posts, if MY mother were to lovingly call me an abomination, I probably would still be wetting the bed even as we speak...that's not love folks, in any therapists book...but, that is the proverbial "lay of the land" in Fundamentalist America..."why have compassion when a good dose of LAW breaks your spirit?" The idea isn't "what you've done to get where you are" it's where you are NOW and being in the process of conforming yourself to the image of Christ. I will now blow my nose, take a drink of water and step down from my soap box.

[Naomi]

(01-04-2011 10:09 PM)Katerpillar Wrote:  since the Bible makes it very clear that a man is not supposed to have sex with another man.

Actually, many people find that the interpretation of the passage(s) you're referencing is not as clear-cut as you seem to think. I do not believe it is a sin for men to have sex with each other. I'm sure there are many others here who hold similar beliefs, and we are all probably extremely well-versed in the fundamentalist viewpoint. I am interested to find out what led to people questioning their beliefs in the first place. I might post more later on my own journey, but just wanted to note that for now.

[LMcC]

(01-05-2011 09:47 PM)Smith Wrote:  Also, think about this, WHAT IF someone had an identity change like Faith has and they "got saved" in a Fundy church, what do you think the reception would be? It's not like they could (or would want to) just snap their fingers and BOOM! Cloud of smoke! They're a guy again! No, you must deal with people where they are NOW, not where we think they SHOULD BE...these are real people with real longings, real flesh and at the resurrection, God will deal with everything. In the meantime, you have people that have made, what they feel, are the best choices for themselves and if they are redeemed, they have the Holy Spirit indwelling in them...now what? Are they your brothers and sisters in the Lord or not?

Niiiice.

Quite honestly and sadly, there is no room for the TGs in Fundamentalism. There is also no room for single mothers, children of divorced and/or widowed parents, rape survivors, women who have had abortions, people with tattoos, young widows, people who live with mental illness... pretty much all of us who have even the smallest deviation from the perfect Fundamentalist life. Fundamentalism has no room for true grace. Fundamentalism is all about holding up Ideal X and then condemning the living daylights out of people who can never live it -- whether the life change involved was in their control or not.

Guess what? There's a lot of life that cannot be undone. Dead husbands and fathers cannot be raised to make a family whole again. Aborted children cannot be brought back. Nobody can make a rapist undo his actions. Brain changes caused by both depression and its treatments aren't going anywhere. Single parents can't (legally) make their kids disappear and their ex-spouses/partners cease to exist. While it may be possible to undo a gender reassignment or a tattoo, it's often extremely expensive and time-consuming, and I know of no church that would help someone pay for that or even support someone through it. Since a lot of us fall somewhere in these permanently changed categories, and since Fundyland has no use for us, we're up a creek if that's the only way to go.

There is a better way. There is grace in Christ. There is room to meet people where they are now. There is "let's walk together from here, regardless of how we got to this point." There is real hope for the future. I have no idea how it's supposed to work, but that's not my problem. God is more than big enough to deal with all of us.

[HazelEyed]

(01-06-2011 11:05 AM)LMcC Wrote:  

(01-05-2011 09:47 PM)Smith Wrote:  Also, think about this, WHAT IF someone had an identity change like Faith has and they "got saved" in a Fundy church, what do you think the reception would be? It's not like they could (or would want to) just snap their fingers and BOOM! Cloud of smoke! They're a guy again! No, you must deal with people where they are NOW, not where we think they SHOULD BE...these are real people with real longings, real flesh and at the resurrection, God will deal with everything. In the meantime, you have people that have made, what they feel, are the best choices for themselves and if they are redeemed, they have the Holy Spirit indwelling in them...now what? Are they your brothers and sisters in the Lord or not?

Niiiice.

Quite honestly and sadly, there is no room for the TGs in Fundamentalism. There is also no room for single mothers, children of divorced and/or widowed parents, rape survivors, women who have had abortions, people with tattoos, young widows, people who live with mental illness... pretty much all of us who have even the smallest deviation from the perfect Fundamentalist life. Fundamentalism has no room for true grace. Fundamentalism is all about holding up Ideal X and then condemning the living daylights out of people who can never live it -- whether the life change involved was in their control or not.

Guess what? There's a lot of life that cannot be undone. Dead husbands and fathers cannot be raised to make a family whole again. Aborted children cannot be brought back. Nobody can make a rapist undo his actions. Brain changes caused by both depression and its treatments aren't going anywhere. Single parents can't (legally) make their kids disappear and their ex-spouses/partners cease to exist. While it may be possible to undo a gender reassignment or a tattoo, it's often extremely expensive and time-consuming, and I know of no church that would help someone pay for that or even support someone through it. Since a lot of us fall somewhere in these permanently changed categories, and since Fundyland has no use for us, we're up a creek if that's the only way to go.

There is a better way. There is grace in Christ. There is room to meet people where they are now. There is "let's walk together from here, regardless of how we got to this point." There is real hope for the future. I have no idea how it's supposed to work, but that's not my problem. God is more than big enough to deal with all of us.

You're right. There is no room, at least as far as I've experienced, for people with mental illness in Fundamentalism. I was told by my university that mental illness didn't exist, essentially, and my parents told me to cover it up and not talk about it. (They no longer hold this position, mostly.)

[steviusthedevious]

(01-06-2011 11:45 PM)HazelEyed Wrote:  You're right. There is no room, at least as far as I've experienced, for people with mental illness in Fundamentalism. I was told by my university that mental illness didn't exist, essentially, and my parents told me to cover it up and not talk about it. (They no longer hold this position, mostly.)

i was recently speaking with a friend about this, how depression is a sin since we are to always have 'the joy of the lord' under the current fundamentalist dialectic. it's depressing, really.

are you this friend?

[co_heir]

I have gone from pretty much drinking the fundy kool-ade to Reformed Baptist to seeker sensitive to emerging to a combination of various things. To give you an idea, I have been influenced by diverse people like Brian McLaren, Leonard Sweet, Philip Yancey, Rob Bell, Charles Swindoll, John Piper, Tim Keller, C.S. Lewis, Brennan Manning, Michael Spencer, Steve Brown, and so on. I've gone from not wanting to read or hear anything outside the accepted line to being willing to read any number of things, with a prayer to the Spirit to teach me.

Oh, I also read the Bible too.

[Tony Mel]

(01-09-2011 05:09 PM)co_heir Wrote:  I have gone from pretty much drinking the fundy kool-ade to Reformed Baptist to seeker sensitive to emerging to a combination of various things. To give you an idea, I have been influenced by diverse people like Brian McLaren, Leonard Sweet, Philip Yancey, Rob Bell, Charles Swindoll, John Piper, Tim Keller, C.S. Lewis, Brennan Manning, Michael Spencer, Steve Brown, and so on. I've gone from not wanting to read or hear anything outside the accepted line to being willing to read any number of things, with a prayer to the Spirit to teach me.

Oh, I also read the Bible too.

Now you need to hear the Arminian side.