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hac84 · 05-07-2011, 09:37 AM

(03-07-2011 01:49 AM)GraceThruFaith Wrote: http://www.biblelineministries.org/artic...R+HANDS%3F

I heard this for the first time today....if we don't go soul winning, the blood of those who we did witness to would be on our hands when God judges us at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

My first week as a freshman at HAC, a guy in my dorm (who I didn't even know) asked me for my car for Saturday. I told him I do not loan out my car--insurance and so forth. He told me I valued my car above souls. He was a bus captain and needed my car to visit his bus route in Chicago. If anyone were to die on his bus route and go to hell, God would hold me personally responsible. How would I feel standing before God, holding my car keys with blood dripping from my hands.

exIFB · 05-07-2011, 03:45 PM

At least you'd still have your car keys. Especially since that event will never happen. Why would God judge you for sin when He already Judged Jesus once for all sin?

**LMcC** · 05-09-2011, 11:18 AM

(05-07-2011 09:37 AM)hac84 Wrote:
(03-07-2011 01:49 AM)GraceThruFaith Wrote: http://www.biblelineministries.org/artic...R+HANDS%3F

I heard this for the first time today....if we don't go soul winning, the blood of those who we did witness to would be on our hands when God judges us at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

My first week as a freshman at HAC, a guy in my dorm (who I didn't even know) asked me for my car for Saturday. I told him I do not loan out my car--insurance and so forth. He told me I valued my car above souls. He was a bus captain and needed my car to visit his bus route in Chicago. If anyone were to die on his bus route and go to hell, God would hold me personally responsible. How would I feel standing before God, holding my car keys with blood dripping from my hands.

Wow, talk about manipulation, and talk about a massive set of brass ones on that guy for having the nerve to ask someone he doesn't even know if he can use the car. *mind blown* Obviously, you don't know if the guy can drive a straight line or if he'd even respect your property. (Generally, for people with that kind of attitude toward other people's stuff, the answer is "no".) Couldn't respect personal boundaries, insurance restrictions, etc... no way should he be allowed near anything of yours.

He's also not a smart guy himself for doing that. For all he knew, your car (or anyone else's he borrowed for that matter) could have been unsafe and left him stranded somewhere. Then what would have have said to you? What kind of self-righteous tirade would he have unleashed?

Not the first Fundy with no boundaries and an obscene sense of entitlement, but that's definitely the most outrageous.

barttheanorak · 05-09-2011, 12:42 PM

(05-07-2011 09:37 AM)hac84 Wrote:
(03-07-2011 01:49 AM)GraceThruFaith Wrote: http://www.biblelineministries.org/artic...R+HANDS%3F

I heard this for the first time today....if we don't go soul winning, the blood of those who we did witness to would be on our hands when God judges us at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

My first week as a freshman at HAC, a guy in my dorm (who I didn't even know) asked me for my car for Saturday. I told him I do not loan out my car--insurance and so forth. He told me I valued my car above souls. He was a bus captain and needed my car to visit his bus route in Chicago. If anyone were to die on his bus route and go to hell, God would hold me personally responsible. How would I feel standing before God, holding my car keys with blood dripping from my hands.

He should have remembered that ultimately it is God who supplies and whose honour is at stake.

Interesting how no-one's replied to my post on the previous page...

**RobMille** · 05-09-2011, 01:36 PM

(05-07-2011 09:37 AM)hac84 Wrote:
(03-07-2011 01:49 AM)GraceThruFaith Wrote: http://www.biblelineministries.org/artic...R+HANDS%3F

I heard this for the first time today....if we don't go soul winning, the blood of those who we did witness to would be on our hands when God judges us at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

My first week as a freshman at HAC, a guy in my dorm (who I didn't even know) asked me for my car for Saturday. I told him I do not loan out my car--insurance and so forth. He told me I valued my car above souls. He was a bus captain and needed my car to visit his bus route in Chicago. If anyone were to die on his bus route and go to hell, God would hold me personally responsible. How would I feel standing before God, holding my car keys with blood dripping from my hands.

That's pretty vicious, but in fairness any college age group guys will put pressure on others to borrow their car, it's over the top to try to use God to get someone's car, but not surprising.

exIFB · 05-09-2011, 02:39 PM

I didn't know how to reply. I agree. IBH is full of self righteous people.

barttheanorak · 05-09-2011, 05:43 PM

(05-09-2011 02:39 PM)exIFB Wrote: I didn't know how to reply. I agree. IBH is full of self righteous people.

And I want to be part of a movement of Christians who want to show them for the nasty little Pharisees (I think) they are. Where they abuse Scripture, let us put it back in its proper context. Where they don't, let's prove we can speak with more love than them.

You've gotta love Tim Conway's conversion testimony though. He was addicted to crystal meths until someone lent him John MacArthur's book The Gospel According To Jesus. But here is the Calvinist error to my mind. They forget that you can begin well and yet can stray. There are two errors there. One is that a testimony like that negates the possibility of doctrinal error. The other is that anyone who's in error has never truly been saved.

What bugs me about them more than anything is that IBH has grown from simply people wanting to know more about how to get saved a la Ray Comfort (James Jennings started it because the Ask Pastor Tim videos were getting people emailing round the clock) to vulnerable teenagers eating out of Conway's hand.

That's how it seems to me anyway.

hac84 · 05-09-2011, 06:42 PM

Told the guy that if he really believed that, he should get a cab. As a result, I am one of the few people who found a way to graduate from HAC with a pastoral degree without working on a bus route.

exIFB · 05-09-2011, 08:07 PM

I have not read Gospel According to Jesus. I have read plenty of reviews and enough large quotes from the book to know that it basically reignited the Lordship Salvation debate in the 80's or whenever it was published (early 90s?). From quotes I have read, the book sounds very much like what Tim Conway preaches (and Ray Comfort) - works righteousness under the smokescreen of grace, constant self examination to the point of depression and hourly confession, worm theology, and works sanctification.

While it may sound unfair to dismiss the book based on reviews and a few quotes, I have read similar books, endorsed by John MacArthur, such as "Revivals Golden Key" by Ray Comfort (which I can sum up as - Revivals Golden Key is using and keeping the Law), which I loved at the time (and I can't even look at it now lest my anxiety levels raise the roof), "Worlds Greatest Preachers" by Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron (which I can sum up as "Sermons about the Law and how God is angry all the time at everyone everywhere"), and a few others I don't recall.

I was heavily into the Lordship salvation teaching for a time. 5 years ago, I would have loved Tim Conway and been one of those eating out of his hand.

exIFB · (This post was last modified: 05-09-2011 08:48 PM by exIFB.)

Quote:a polemic against easy-believism/cheap grace

I know that is what many people see, but the problem is, the teaching they are arguing against doesn't exist. Well, it does, but in taking a stand against the "abc pray after me" trends in many churches (including calvinist churches - I only say that because many calvinists do claim that the teaching is exclusively outside calvinism), they also include many churches that do teach the pure free grace of God - that the grace of God is what teaches us to deny ungodliness.

You can't read Steve McVey, Andrew Farley, Joseph Prince and come away with "grace is awesome because I can sin so much now". But that is what the (Lordship Crowd) are saying - that people actually teach that. But NO ONE does. You will never hear a sermon where the preacher says "you can sin all you want because you are saved". People might misunderstand grace to be license, but the solution is not to add law. The solution is more grace. Because until they know how much God loves them, and what it cost to save them, no amount of law is going to change anything, because the motivation is fear, which is fleshly.

Cheap grace is a misnomer. No free grace advocate downplays the blood of Christ and the cost that Jesus paid when He died on the cross. I am not a free grace advocate. I call myself a pure grace believer. I think Free grace advocates tend to explain away too many of the scary verses (so they become "loss of rewards"), instead of trying to understand them from a grace perspective (incidently, there is no mention of rewards anywhere in the Bible - only reward, singular).

Easy believism is also a misnomer. If it is all of God, then it is easy. If it is man's will that is involved, why would God make it hard? If it was hard, it implies effort is involved, which implies work. It's either pure and free, or it's difficult and hard and requires works?

Here is a scale I have made. This scale exists in the minds of Lordship people

Antinomianism (No law)-------->Lordship Salvation (law grace mix)------->Works Salvation (no grace)

They caricature the not under law and call them antinomian, they oppose works righteousness, rightly so, and then set themselves up in the middle, a nice little balance.

The problem is, any addition of law to the gospel and sanctification is works righteousness.

Here is the scale that works in my head

Antinomianism(0)------------>Pure Grace(1)----------------------------->Free Grace & Lordship(2) ------------------>Works Salvation (3)

(0) No respect for law - the law is bad
(1) The law is good, perfect, Holy, and we are not, thus, we need Jesus and are not under law anymore but only grace (Titus 2:12)
(2) The law is good, perfect, Holy, and we are not, thus, we need Jesus but the law still applies for sanctification
(3) Keeping the law makes one righteous

Lordship Salvation and Free Grace are a little more involved than that. The differences between the two are more focused on how & when one is saved, but both agree that sanctification is through law keeping.