Does God need us? and Why does he love us?

[greg]

(03-29-2011 06:00 AM)chris1000bc Wrote:  

(03-28-2011 04:40 PM)greg Wrote:  I would certainly and completely disagree that Paul was of any reformed belief system, the author of the original, Romans road to salvation.

Greg,

You do realize that Calvinists are for people getting saved too, right?

You might be surprised to know that many famous pro-people-getting-saved ministers and missionaries were also Calvinists such as George Whitefield and William Carey. This desire to see persons converted is not in conflict with their being Calvinists just like your knowing that some people will never become Christians is not in conflict with your desire that they be saved.

You left out my favorite, Charles Spurgeon, actually w/in the reformed camp there is a wide range of beliefs regarding this issue. I have said this before, and I know that some of my calvinists brothers may take it wrong, but at the risk of being misunderstood I will continue to say it, and here it is, I don't know and have not met the God of calvinism. I have read and studied the scripture from a child, always and at all times Jesus and the scriptures have beckoned "all" to come to Him for salvation, I don't see, and no one has ever been able to show me where Jesus only died for a few, and the bibles message for all to come is repeated over and over and over again. Jesus said, If I be lifted up I will draw (a few of the elect) to me, no,no, no, He will draw all me unto me.
For whosever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 1 John 2:2 "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world" Romans 1:16 "the gospel is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes." John 1:12 "But to all who believe on Him, who believed in His name, he gave the right to become the sons of God."

Why did He come to this planet? Jesus said, "I came to seek and to save that which was lost" which is all of us. I see nothing of a God that picks and chooses among mankind, the invitation is for all, that is what is reinforced over and over in the scripture. 1 Timothy 2:3-4 "This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." God wants all men to be saved, that is what he says, forgive me if I don't accept some idea about He only wants some men, that is contrary to what God just said, He wants all men to be saved. Can you see some poor soul that finds the word of God and reads these verses I have given, and God says, sorry you aren't one of the elect, "but God you said you would save anyone that called on your name" God says I'm sorry friend but you should have gone to a reformed church to find out that "all" doesn't always mean "all" Or how about the opposite. Hitler being one of the "elect" gets to heaven, has a look around and says, Hey God what am I doing here, I don't deserve to be here, in fact I don't want to be here, God says well hold on there a minute Adolph, God checks his list, nope there's no mistake you are one of the "elect" you're supposed to be here.

I am a simple man, I just simply believe what Jesus says. I accepted his plan for salvation, no one forced me, I could have just as easily rejected, people reject God's plan for salvation everyday and end up in the fires of Hell. The invitation for salvation is for all just as Jesus said. He doesn't want any to perish, just as He said.

[chris1000bc]

Greg,

I repeat:

You do realize that Calvinists are for people getting saved too, right?


Also, you do realize that Calvinists do not believe that people who want to go to heaven are prevented from doing so because they are not elect or that people who don't want to go to heaven are forced to because they are elect? Have you heard a Calvinist on this forum present that view? Calvinists believe that a person who does choose to believe in Christ is elect, and that a person that ultimately chooses not to believe in Christ is not elect. We may disagree on why someone chooses one way or the other or why they are ultimately elect, but we don't disagree on who would be elect in these cases.

Finally...you say "actually w/in the reformed camp there is a wide range of beliefs regarding this issue." That is not true regarding Calvinists wanting people to get saved. Either a person wants people to be saved or they do not. The vast majority of Calvinists hope that many people are converted to faith in Christ. Again, this works just like someone's believing that a "few" in one sense will find the narrow path to life does not prevent them from still desiring many to find the path. Also, I agree that you may be able to find websites or sects within Calvinism who represent the view you put forward of Calvinism, but these represent a minority and fringe group. The vast majority of popular Calvinist pastors, authors, and seminary professors want people to be converted to Christ. If these fringe persons are not represented on this forum (and I have not heard someone say something like that yet), why are you arguing with us as though we believe those things? At those moments, we agree with you (the moments when you are saying that you want people to be saved and that the gospel invitation should be given to all).

[greg]

(03-29-2011 11:45 AM)Donb123 Wrote:  

(03-29-2011 11:30 AM)greg Wrote:  I have said this before, and I know that some of my calvinists brothers may take it wrong, but at the risk of being misunderstood I will continue to say it, and here it is, I don't know and have not met the God of calvinism. I have read and studied the scripture from a

LOL... Okay, I can play that game. I do not know this god of arminianism. He offered up his son in hope that he might actually save some people but golly gee... we sure hope it works out. I mean their wills are sovereign so the best he can do is stand at our heart's door and meekly knock hoping we'll let him in from the cold.

Quote:child, always and at all times Jesus and the scriptures have beckoned "all" to come to Him for salvation, I don't see, and no one has ever been able to show me where Jesus only died for a

John 10:15
just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep

John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

Calvinists believe in the sovereignty of God in salvation AND human responsibility- the responsibility to do as God says and to turn to him in repentance. Calvinists don't reject any of the points you made in your post regarding turning to Christ and looking to the one who was lifted up, etc. Thus, we affirm BOTH aspects of the gospel message. I don't see any room for God's electing and predestination (Romans 8,9; Acts 13:48, et.al.), which is clearly affirmed in Scripture, in your statements. Do you simply leave them out because you don't know what to do with these statements or you just don't agree with these parts of Scripture?

First off I'm not Arminian. I am a christian having "accepted" God's plan of salvation, I was not forced or coerced into accepting God's plan for mankind, I of my own free will "accepted" this plan of my complete and own freewill, God having never twisted my arm. I was drawn by the Holy Spirit "If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me" So I was drawn precisely as every man is drawn, exactly as Jesus says, but I unlike many others did not "reject" this drawing.

Please don't misunderstand, yes God died for all and w/in that all, certainly is His elect. Unlike the wrong teachings of many in the reformed camp (my opinion) the elect are not pre-selected by God, frankly (I really don't want to be insulting to anyone) how anyone could believe this in view of the mountains of scriptures to the contrary is beyond me. I have said many times, for every verse a calvinist can provide to support calvinism I can provide a dozen supporting for whosoever will. But anyway very simply, when God's speaks about the elect, understand He knows the end from the beginning, He is not bound by time, He is God and Lord over all. A very good example of this is at Revelation 13:8 Speaking of Jesus as "the Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world." How can this be, we know that Jesus went to the cross of Calvary some 2000 years ago, right? Take it up with God, His Word says that Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world. So when God Almighty speaks about the "elect" He is only expressing his omniscience. He knows who will "accept" Him.

So there we have the elect. Predestination is even easier. For probably the best explanation of predestination we must go to the calvinists favorite book of the bible. Romans 8:29 "For those God foreknew (the elect) He also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son" So if you of your own free will accepted God's plan for salvation of mankind and called upon Jesus for your salvation, you are one of the "elect" God knew you were coming, but He didn't force you to. Now if you are one of the "elect" you are also "predestined" to be conformed to the image of His dear Son.

I don't have all the answers about salvation, I don't know how it all works, it is mysterious to me, all I have to go on is God's Word and the Holy Spirit to guide me, based on my understanding of that Word I completely reject all five points of the man-made belief system known as calvinism.

If calvinists knew grace like I knew grace, they would run from calvinism like a horse running out of a burning barn.

[captain_solo]

@greg

This is basically pointless. You are redefining and relabeling things so fast I can't keep up. Either you don't know what "Calvinism" actually is, or you are building up a straw man on purpose.

I quoted those same verses from Romans to you that clearly teach predestination and you have used them to deny it? You obviously are only interested in blasting "Calvinism" as you have created it, and not in a profitable discussion from the Scriptures. I made it clear I don't believe in limited atonement as described by the council of Dort, and that your understanding of foreknowledge is different than the accepted view of what it means. I sense much fundy argumentation in you, you draw emotion right into your arguments, but little in the way of consistent systematic thinking on the text of scripture as a whole, not just the verses you have plucked out and used to support your emotional response to how God "must" behave or you won't like him.

[chris1000bc]

(03-29-2011 12:44 PM)greg Wrote:  If calvinists knew grace like I knew grace, they would run from calvinism like a horse running out of a burning barn.

If Calvinists knew Calvinism like you know Calvinism, they would run from it like a horse running out of a burning barn. The problem is that many of us are unfamiliar with the Calvinism you speak of except among fringe sects and among straw men arguments constructed by fundies.

[greg]

(03-29-2011 02:46 PM)captain_solo Wrote:  @greg

This is basically pointless. You are redefining and relabeling things so fast I can't keep up. Either you don't know what "Calvinism" actually is, or you are building up a straw man on purpose.

I quoted those same verses from Romans to you that clearly teach predestination and you have used them to deny it? You obviously are only interested in blasting "Calvinism" as you have created it, and not in a profitable discussion from the Scriptures. I made it clear I don't believe in limited atonement as described by the council of Dort, and that your understanding of foreknowledge is different than the accepted view of what it means. I sense much fundy argumentation in you, you draw emotion right into your arguments, but little in the way of consistent systematic thinking on the text of scripture as a whole, not just the verses you have plucked out and used to support your emotional response to how God "must" behave or you won't like him.

I agree that it may be pointless, of course with the exception of the true gospel of Jesus Christ getting promoted. I don't think I am going to change your mind, and didn't expect to. You speak about "drawing emotion right into my arguments" that is exactly what I perceive you to be doing. I don't wish to make you mad, but talk about me not having a consistent sytematic thinking on the text, that is precisely what I would have to say about you. I feel you have grabbed onto the favorite 8 calvinism verses and run wild with them. (alittle sarcasm)

I told someone here that I think just as much of my opinion as I do Calvin's, so for me to "blast" Calvin, as you said means nothing to me, I regard Calvin as a very seriously mixed-up scholar who is leading alot of folks the wrong way. I don't respect John Calvin's beliefs.

All of the above said. Let's finish on a good note. I know you are a very serious and sincere follower of Jesus, if the Apostles got on each others nerves, you know we are bound to. If you in fact have "called" on Jesus Christ, as all of scripture teaches we must in order to be saved, and have received Him as your Savior, you are my brother in Christ, therefore you must put up with me and I you.

These things I write unto you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

I "know" I have eternal life, I hope you all do as well.

[captain_solo]

(03-29-2011 06:26 PM)greg Wrote:  

(03-29-2011 02:46 PM)captain_solo Wrote:  @greg

This is basically pointless. You are redefining and relabeling things so fast I can't keep up. Either you don't know what "Calvinism" actually is, or you are building up a straw man on purpose.

I quoted those same verses from Romans to you that clearly teach predestination and you have used them to deny it? You obviously are only interested in blasting "Calvinism" as you have created it, and not in a profitable discussion from the Scriptures. I made it clear I don't believe in limited atonement as described by the council of Dort, and that your understanding of foreknowledge is different than the accepted view of what it means. I sense much fundy argumentation in you, you draw emotion right into your arguments, but little in the way of consistent systematic thinking on the text of scripture as a whole, not just the verses you have plucked out and used to support your emotional response to how God "must" behave or you won't like him.

I agree that it may be pointless, of course with the exception of the true gospel of Jesus Christ getting promoted. I don't think I am going to change your mind, and didn't expect to. You speak about "drawing emotion right into my arguments" that is exactly what I perceive you to be doing. I don't wish to make you mad, but talk about me not having a consistent sytematic thinking on the text, that is precisely what I would have to say about you. I feel you have grabbed onto the favorite 8 calvinism verses and run wild with them. (alittle sarcasm)

I told someone here that I think just as much of my opinion as I do Calvin's, so for me to "blast" Calvin, as you said means nothing to me, I regard Calvin as a very seriously mixed-up scholar who is leading alot of folks the wrong way. I don't respect John Calvin's beliefs.

All of the above said. Let's finish on a good note. I know you are a very serious and sincere follower of Jesus, if the Apostles got on each others nerves, you know we are bound to. If you in fact have "called" on Jesus Christ, as all of scripture teaches we must in order to be saved, and have received Him as your Savior, you are my brother in Christ, therefore you must put up with me and I you.

These things I write unto you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

I "know" I have eternal life, I hope you all do as well.

I am glad you can be that generous with me, I also am very charitable about my views on these matters in spite of their importance. In fact I believe that even an Arminian could end up in heaven, in fact if he is among the elect he will end up there whether he like it or not!