Does God need us? and Why does he love us?

[captain_solo]

(03-28-2011 01:03 PM)chris1000bc Wrote:  

(03-28-2011 01:01 PM)captain_solo Wrote:  Personally, I only believe the parts of Calvinism that Calvin did.

You are sure he is the only one stirring the pot?

Guilty as charged!

[greg]

captain_solo

Forget for a moment all theology you have ever learned. The two examples that I gave earlier, would they make you think that you were being "forced" to accept them, or that you could choose? Want to live? Look on the Serpent. Is anyone there making you look? Jesus said "whosever shall call upon me, shall be saved" do you feel that is an invitation to everyone? I submit that had not Calvin came up with this belief system, no one would look at these few verses and believe anything other than what they plainly teach. Btw I am skeptical of any and all belief systems that have any man's name attached to it. (I think as much of my opinion as Calvin's, in fact I think more of my opinion)

These are well travelled roads for me, and I always end up saying similar things in response. Reformed folks concern themselves too much with God's part in salvation and neglect "our" part, let me say I don't understand completely the way God works and moves on people's hearts, all I have to go on is God's word and his Holy Spirit.

God knows the end from the beginning, Psalms 139:4 "Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O Lord" Does God know who is going to call on Him using their own freewill, yes, hard to understand that, isn't it?

Open theism fails in that it attempts to explain the unexplainable, as I have already alluded to. The relationship between God' foreknowledge and mankind's freewill. Just as extreme forms of Calvinsim fail in that they make humans "robots", so open theism fail in that it rejects God's omniscience and sovereinty.

[captain_solo]

(03-28-2011 01:41 PM)greg Wrote:  captain_solo

Forget for a moment all theology you have ever learned. The two examples that I gave earlier, would they make you think that you were being "forced" to accept them, or that you could choose? Want to live? Look on the Serpent. Is anyone there making you look? Jesus said "whosever shall call upon me, shall be saved" do you feel that is an invitation to everyone? I submit that had not Calvin came up with this belief system, no one would look at these few verses and believe anything other than what they plainly teach. Btw I am skeptical of any and all belief systems that have any man's name attached to it. (I think as much of my opinion as Calvin's, in fact I think more of my opinion)

These are well travelled roads for me, and I always end up saying similar things in response. Reformed folks concern themselves too much with God's part in salvation and neglect "our" part, let me say I don't understand completely the way God works and moves on people's hearts, all I have to go on is God's word and his Holy Spirit.

God knows the end from the beginning, Psalms 139:4 "Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O Lord" Does God know who is going to call on Him using their own freewill, yes, hard to understand that, isn't it?

Open theism fails in that it attempts to explain the unexplainable, as I have already alluded to. The relationship between God' foreknowledge and mankind's freewill. Just as extreme forms of Calvinsim fail in that they make humans "robots", so open theism fail in that it rejects God's omniscience and sovereinty.

So its, "forget all the theology you have ever learned...and adopt mine"
I can see where this is going!

Quote:Reformed folks concern themselves too much with God's part in salvation and neglect "our" part, let me say I don't understand completely the way God works and moves on people's hearts, all I have to go on is God's word and his Holy Spirit.

many non-reformed folks concern themselves too much with Man's part in salvation and neglect or deny God's part. I don't understand completely the way God works and moves on people's hearts, all I have to go on is God's word and his Holy Spirit. (See we agree!)

Jesus offer is valid for everyone (even his offer of the kingdom to Israel was valid - their rejection of it was part of God's plan, but the offer was valid), Christ's atonement was sufficient for everyone, you will get no argument on that from me. Those who choose to follow Christ will be saved. The fact that we are asked to choose to accept does not change the truth about God's nature. God does not need us to follow Christ in order to gain something he lost, get something he doesn't have, or feel something he cannot feel within the relationship of the Godhead within themself so to speak.

Foreknowlege is not Knowlege as in "I know something", its intimacy, as in "Adam knew his wife" - Those he did foreknow he predestined to sanctification(conformed to the image of His Son) - this goes beyond mere justification - God knew what would happen because he decreed it. Yet man is responsible for this choice, we are responsible as obedient followers to carry the message of reconciliation, and we are to call people to make a decision. This results in a middle ground, where it is not as you say me being "forced" to accept, nor am I capable of "absolute autonomy" - God's work is not coercion, it is enlightenment which results in willingness. I like you do not understand how these things work together, but I believe what I read in scripture, and do not attempt to oversimplify it for my understanding, nor do I use logic to extend the teachings in scripture to what could I supposed be called their "logical conclusion" - I take them as they are and recognize the mysteries of God as just that.

This results in me disagreeing with the emphasis of just about every theologian on every side.

[greg]

(03-28-2011 02:34 PM)captain_solo Wrote:  

(03-28-2011 01:41 PM)greg Wrote:  captain_solo

Forget for a moment all theology you have ever learned. The two examples that I gave earlier, would they make you think that you were being "forced" to accept them, or that you could choose? Want to live? Look on the Serpent. Is anyone there making you look? Jesus said "whosever shall call upon me, shall be saved" do you feel that is an invitation to everyone? I submit that had not Calvin came up with this belief system, no one would look at these few verses and believe anything other than what they plainly teach. Btw I am skeptical of any and all belief systems that have any man's name attached to it. (I think as much of my opinion as Calvin's, in fact I think more of my opinion)

These are well travelled roads for me, and I always end up saying similar things in response. Reformed folks concern themselves too much with God's part in salvation and neglect "our" part, let me say I don't understand completely the way God works and moves on people's hearts, all I have to go on is God's word and his Holy Spirit.

God knows the end from the beginning, Psalms 139:4 "Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O Lord" Does God know who is going to call on Him using their own freewill, yes, hard to understand that, isn't it?

Open theism fails in that it attempts to explain the unexplainable, as I have already alluded to. The relationship between God' foreknowledge and mankind's freewill. Just as extreme forms of Calvinsim fail in that they make humans "robots", so open theism fail in that it rejects God's omniscience and sovereinty.

So its, "forget all the theology you have ever learned...and adopt mine"
I can see where this is going!

Quote:Reformed folks concern themselves too much with God's part in salvation and neglect "our" part, let me say I don't understand completely the way God works and moves on people's hearts, all I have to go on is God's word and his Holy Spirit.

many non-reformed folks concern themselves too much with Man's part in salvation and neglect or deny God's part. I don't understand completely the way God works and moves on people's hearts, all I have to go on is God's word and his Holy Spirit. (See we agree!)

Jesus offer is valid for everyone (even his offer of the kingdom to Israel was valid - their rejection of it was part of God's plan, but the offer was valid), Christ's atonement was sufficient for everyone, you will get no argument on that from me. Those who choose to follow Christ will be saved. The fact that we are asked to choose to accept does not change the truth about God's nature. God does not need us to follow Christ in order to gain something he lost, get something he doesn't have, or feel something he cannot feel within the relationship of the Godhead within themself so to speak.

Foreknowlege is not Knowlege as in "I know something", its intimacy, as in "Adam knew his wife" - Those he did foreknow he predestined to sanctification(conformed to the image of His Son) - this goes beyond mere justification - God knew what would happen because he decreed it. Yet man is responsible for this choice, we are responsible as obedient followers to carry the message of reconciliation, and we are to call people to make a decision. This results in a middle ground, where it is not as you say me being "forced" to accept, nor am I capable of "absolute autonomy" - God's work is not coercion, it is enlightenment which results in willingness. I like you do not understand how these things work together, but I believe what I read in scripture, and do not attempt to oversimplify it for my understanding, nor do I use logic to extend the teachings in scripture to what could I supposed be called their "logical conclusion" - I take them as they are and recognize the mysteries of God as just that.

This results in me disagreeing with the emphasis of just about every theologian on every side.

I see you put the smiley face after you quoted my question on "forgetting your theology" My serious point is that "we" make the salvation plan too difficult, were it not for Calvin starting this belief system, how would anyone come up with these ideas? One man, Calvin, came up with what I consider to be a "bizarre" belief system, and now look what we have.

[captain_solo]

(03-28-2011 03:05 PM)Donb123 Wrote:  

(03-28-2011 02:52 PM)greg Wrote:  I see you put the smiley face after you quoted my question on "forgetting your theology" My serious point is that "we" make the salvation plan too difficult, were it not for Calvin starting this belief system, how would anyone come up with these ideas? One man, Calvin, came up with what I consider to be a "bizarre" belief system, and now look what we have.

Read some Augustine.... oh and the Apostle Paul too.

Well, its clear that Paul was a Calvinist, Augustine didn't take it quite as far... and also realize that "Calvinism" was not fully developed by Calvin, it was more again the "logical extensions" of what he taught from the scriptures. Its not the teaching of one man, but is a paradigm developed over a long period with many contributing to it. "bizarre" ? well, the writings of Paul are pretty bizarre. I mean the craziness that we can't do for ourselves and need the grace of God. Imagine what would happen if that idea took off?

[greg]

(03-28-2011 03:26 PM)captain_solo Wrote:  

(03-28-2011 03:05 PM)Donb123 Wrote:  Read some Augustine.... oh and the Apostle Paul too.

Well, its clear that Paul was a Calvinist, Augustine didn't take it quite as far... and also realize that "Calvinism" was not fully developed by Calvin, it was more again the "logical extensions" of what he taught from the scriptures. Its not the teaching of one man, but is a paradigm developed over a long period with many contributing to it. "bizarre" ? well, the writings of Paul are pretty bizarre. I mean the craziness that we can't do for ourselves and need the grace of God. Imagine what would happen if that idea took off?

You are quite correct about Augustine, in fact in some circles, they say that Calvin never had an original thought, just mouthed what Augustine said/wrote, maybe I should be coming down on him, but the fact remains that Calvin ended up with his name attached to this belief system. I would certainly and completely disagree that Paul was of any reformed belief system, the author of the original, Romans road to salvation.

"I am not ashamed of the Gospel, because it is the power of God for the Salvation of everyone who believes"

[captain_solo]

I am not ashamed of the Gospel either, I just choose to define it based on what Paul actual said. And for the record, Paul defined it based on what Jesus said.

From Romans 5 - notice that God's work (our justification/reconciliation) was done while we were still his enemies - not after we chose not to be

" 6For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— 8but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation."

Romans 7 - what does it mean to be "dead" - can a dead man choose to become alive again?

Romans 8 - Who is doing these things?
"29For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

Romans 9

-God chooses - how can there be injustice in this if its our choice?
"14What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills."

-We have no right to demand our own right to choose
" 19You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?"

Romans 11 - a little about God's purposes in hardening the hearts of Israel against their choosing Christ
"28As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. 32For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
33Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
34"For who has known the mind of the Lord,
or who has been his counselor?"
35"Or who has given a gift to him
that he might be repaid?"
36For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen."

You appealed to Romans, so I didn't proof text from all of Paul's writings just stayed near "the original romans road" - I don't think this is really all the complicated.

I am not seeking to prop up any man's philosophy or system, I am merely seeking to use the whole of scripture to inform myself about the character and nature of God so that I am worshiping Him and not an idol of my own creation. To say that man is wholly autonomous is to deny that the creator has any right to shape his creation, and to be honest, I think it denies the truth of many scriptures, and not just in Romans.

[chris1000bc]

(03-28-2011 04:40 PM)greg Wrote:  I would certainly and completely disagree that Paul was of any reformed belief system, the author of the original, Romans road to salvation.

Greg,

You do realize that Calvinists are for people getting saved too, right?

You might be surprised to know that many famous pro-people-getting-saved ministers and missionaries were also Calvinists such as George Whitefield and William Carey. This desire to see persons converted is not in conflict with their being Calvinists just like your knowing that some people will never become Christians is not in conflict with your desire that they be saved.

[JimE]

Does God need us? I don't know. I do not recall anywhere in the Bible that reads "I need you" or "I don't need you". It is fun to speculate, but God simply does not tell us the answer to that question.
Why does he love us? I don't know. I do not recall anywhere in the Bible that reads "I love you because ...". It is fun to speculate, but God simply does not tell us the answer to that question.

A lot of what people claim to know about God is speculation based on ideas derived from the Bible and their understanding based on the ideas of others. IMO, it is hard to accept that God has not revealed everything that we want to know and understand. It is in our nature to want to know the answers to our questions, and to understand the environment in which we exist. It is God's nature to ask us to trust Him.

[captain_solo]

(03-29-2011 06:00 AM)chris1000bc Wrote:  

(03-28-2011 04:40 PM)greg Wrote:  I would certainly and completely disagree that Paul was of any reformed belief system, the author of the original, Romans road to salvation.

Greg,

You do realize that Calvinists are for people getting saved too, right?

You might be surprised to know that many famous pro-people-getting-saved ministers and missionaries were also Calvinists such as George Whitefield and William Carey. This desire to see persons converted is not in conflict with their being Calvinists just like your knowing that some people will never become Christians is not in conflict with your desire that they be saved.

I think you have hit upon the disconnect here. Most people who have a problem with Calvinism a) have no idea what "it" is b) assume that calvinism is hyper-calvinism, or that if you believe in election, then you must believe in double predestination. Belief in the sovereignty of God does not completely change what one does, but it certainly helps us be more effective because we are leaving the results in God's hands and just following his commands. Not manipulating people with well reasoned arguments and emotional pressure. Just preach the Word, and let the chips fall where they may. It helps you reach peace with the truth that not everyone will accept the truth, but that God's plans and purposes will not be shaken. Its about the character and nature of God, not whether or not we share our faith or believe in people needing to accept Christ. That is part of what is necessary in the scriptures for a person to become a child of God, none of that is denied by understanding God's role in salvation as it is taught clearly in the scriptures by Jesus himself and by the other writers of the NT.