God and Time

[Exfundy_Philosopher]

(02-23-2011 10:44 PM)Katerpillar Wrote:  

(02-23-2011 10:38 PM)Exfundy_Philosopher Wrote:  Well, you can't even technically use the word "before" with respect to the origin of time (since "before" is, itself, a time-laden word). Also, it doesn't appear that God 'did' anything since actions require time. For example, if God was doing stuff then there would be a time when he did A and a time when he did B, etc.

Augustine actually alludes to this kind of stuff in The City of God.

We'll never understand this completely while we are mortals on this earth, that's for sure.

That, I can completely agree with.

[Soli Deo Gloria]

I always manage to come in late...

I voted for "other" and I say both. He is everlasting, eternal (no beginning and no end) as well as being outside of time.

[Historian]

Well, I guess my guess (which is about what we're able to do, I suppose) would be a combo of 1 and 2. I do think God is outside of time. However, being God, he is also able to function within time/space as He pleases. Certainly Jesus was God, but He was able to enter our world and live in time and space. At the same time, the Scripture does seem to indicate some way in which God is outside time: for example, the "one day as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day." Then you have the explanation in Hebrews 12 of our standing in Christ:

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

The grammar there is present, not future. As in, despite the fact that I'm here in this very mundane existance, and I know that God deals with me, helps me and listens to me in this time/space where I dwell, there's a very real sense in which, from His perspective, I am already seated in heaven.

[Faith]

I don't think I'm smart enough to answer the question, let alone discuss it.

[Exfundy_Philosopher]

@Soli, Donb123, Historian

So are you saying that God is both inside and outside of time in the same sense? This might lead to another question: can God do what is logically impossible (create square circles, make 2+2=5, exist and not exist, etc.)?

Of course, you might mean that God can transition from temporal to atemporal (at various times?). Yet, once God has entered into a temporal relation, how can it be that he is atemporal as long as the temporal creation exists? That is, since God is considered by many to be constantly acting in and supervising his creation, it seems that he maintains his relation to his temporal creation as long as it exists?

Just throwing things out there as I am still in the process of thinking through all of this for myself (except for the question about God being able to act illogically, I'm quite settled on that). It's helpful to see what others think about this.

[Historian]

I don't know that any human can really answer those questions. But I'd say, yes, God is both inside and outside at the same time. I would find that impossible for anyone else. For a God who exists as three, and yet one, it doesn't seem impossible.

I don't believe God does things illogical. I don't believe He has given us anything illogical to believe. But illogical and impossible to understand are not synonymous. The trinity is another example, again. I can't say how that works. I can't even fully get my head around it. But it IS logical. For example, if God is not just loving, but the source and perfection of love in the universe, can that love really be expressed in it's infinity and perfection toward finite beings? Isn't it more logical to consider that the fullest perfection of love is expressed between the members of the godhead?

No, I wouldn't say I mean that God can transition between temporal and atemporal at will. Rather that He is able to function in both and exists in both. Otherwise those verses and concepts I mentioned in my first post are contradictory, and one set has to be thrown out.

[Don]

(02-23-2011 11:27 PM)Exfundy_Philosopher Wrote:  @Soli, Donb123, Historian

So are you saying that God is both inside and outside of time in the same sense? This might lead to another question: can God do what is logically impossible (create square circles, make 2+2=5, exist and not exist, etc.)?

Of course, you might mean that God can transition from temporal to atemporal (at various times?). Yet, once God has entered into a temporal relation, how can it be that he is atemporal as long as the temporal creation exists? That is, since God is considered by many to be constantly acting in and supervising his creation, it seems that he maintains his relation to his temporal creation as long as it exists?

Just throwing things out there as I am still in the process of thinking through all of this for myself (except for the question about God being able to act illogically, I'm quite settled on that). It's helpful to see what others think about this.

Could linear time as we experience it actually be a subset of God's eternal now? Where God is able to move in and out of linear time at will and still be the I AM simultaneously at all points along the subset.
Kind of like, we draw a line and we can intersect and interact with that line anywhere of our own choosing yet we are present at all points along that line.
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[Tony Mel]

Time, in itself, doesn't exist. A numerical structure, based on the movement of the celestial bodies, had to be created for man, in order for him to be able to explain events in a progression. The very concept of the eternal precludes the idea of time.

[JimE]

It all depends on your definition of time.
My definition of time: "The sequencing of mass in the x, y and z dimensions." This mirrors Tony Mel's observation.
I view God as not being restricted by time because He is not restricted by x, y and z dimensions.

Prophecy is not what has been observed by God, but rather based on the foreknowledge of God and His power to influence or control mass in the x, y and z dimensions. Prophecy is the expression of God's will to man stated to increase man's trust in God.

I checked other.

[Exfundy_Philosopher]

@JimE, Tony Mel,

It sounds as though both of you are providing an operational definition for time which leads you to assume that time just is the measurement of something.

Most realists about time believe that it is a set of relations among events, or a set of ordered pairs referencing relations (instantaneous or non-instantaneous depending upon your theoretical framework). Now, if by saying that time is not "real" or does not "exist", you mean that time is not a substance or a physical object, then that is pretty obvious. However, going all the way back to Plato, a lot of people believe that things like sets and relations are real things. That is they exist is the same sense of "existence" as substances or physical objects.

If time is a set of relations among events, and God bears relations to temporal events, then it seems that God, himself, is "in time". Of course, I have already noted that this does not mean that God is "in time" in the same way that we are.

By the way, it is interesting to note that even the term "foreknowledge" - in its traditional usage - implies time. Although I'm not saying that one can read a temporal God straight off the pages of Scripture, since the Biblical authors often used personification and anthropomorphism in describing God. Just thought it was interesting to think about.