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Elijah Craig · (This post was last modified: 02-20-2011 01:21 AM by Elijah Craig.)

Another popular claim is that domestic violence is the leading killer of women. There is more substance to this claim but it is still false:

http://www.cdc.gov/women/lcod/06_all_females.pdf

Homicide is the #2 cause of death of women aged 15-24, and #5 cause of death in women aged 25-34. 34% of female homicide victims are killed by a current or former romantic partner. If you break homicide into type, domestic violence is about the #5 or #6 cause of death of women under age 25, and the #7 or #8 cause of death of women 25-35. After that it drops far down the list.

For men, domestic violence is the #10 cause of death for men aged 15-24 and around #10 or #11 for men aged 25-34. Men are more violent than women, but it is mostly male-on-male violence and most signficantly in the black community. Homicide deaths for males drop almost out of view after age 34.

**LMcC** · (This post was last modified: 02-20-2011 09:20 AM by LMcC.)

(02-19-2011 06:24 PM)Elijah Craig Wrote:
(02-19-2011 12:27 PM)LMcC Wrote: Yet you talk like it is.

If people are evil, let the boys and girls get clobbered by their parents. Let the husband beat and rape his wife. Let the pastors molest kids. The world is going to Hell in a handbasket and taking the church with it, so let's not care.

Bullgipp.

Exhibit "A" in people seeing what they want to see. I hope you realize you destroy your credibility with such statements.

No, you twisted it.

Quote:I protested the greviously false statement that female-on-male violence is "very rare." I said that men and women both do evil things because both groups contain evil people in roughly the same number. How you got from there to "boys will be boys" cannot be explained except for some cognitive or emotional issue that exists solely inside your head.

How you got "boys will be boys" out of that I'll never know. I have clearly NOT been one to deny that both men and women can abuse. I only differ in your views on the issue of who has had the majority of control to do anything about the situation.

Quote:It is an intellectually dishonest thing to say. I do not debate with intellectually dishonest people.

Then I hope you don't talk to yourself. I have no idea where you got what you think I said. Oh yeah, you didn't read the last part because it doesn't fit your view.

**LMcC** · (This post was last modified: 02-20-2011 09:41 AM by LMcC.)

The definition of ridiculousness in this thread: The men's rights guys here actually get more worked up and more angry over the posts in which Naomi and I have acknowledged violence against men and have said quite plainly that all abuse survivors should receive help regardless of sex than they would if we really did follow their assumed "OMG they're evil feminazi man-hating lesbians" stereotypes.

greg · 02-20-2011, 09:30 AM

(02-19-2011 09:54 PM)Natalie Wrote: You just had to join this forum, didn't you, Darrell?

You are your damn internet rules.

(02-19-2011 09:23 PM)Darrell Wrote: VIOLENT WOMAN!!! WHERE DOES THE THE HURTING STOP!!!???

I'm trying to get this to Natalie, so I hope that's where it goes. Hey is HF in a car responding to calls? Does he respond to domestic calls? Some jurisdictions have special units that do nothing but investigate domestic crime. Anyhow, tell him to look over these comments and let him tell us what he thinks. Or maybe you don't want to bother him because you're, what, 10 days and a wake up from vacation. YeeeHaaaa!

**Naomi** · 02-20-2011, 11:07 AM

Well, I'm glad some of you don't feel as personally invested in this, assuming that means you don't know anyone in this situation (as long as you're not apathetic, either, because that works to the advantage of abusers). As stated before, I care very deeply about this, for very good reasons.

(02-20-2011 12:38 AM)Elijah Craig Wrote: My reason for refusing to read a random book thrown at me is that there is enormous twisting of facts both by feminists and men's rights advocates.

I did you the courtesy of reading the evidence you brought to the table. (I would certainly appreciate reciprocity.) All the links do support my claim. Anyone can read them and see. I hope people do, and thank you for doing some research on this - I really do want people to care about all domestic violence. Also, I'm kind of tired of people demonizing feminists.

(02-20-2011 12:38 AM)Elijah Craig Wrote: Pre-meditated, systemic domestic violence motivated by a desire to control is more likely to be perpetrated by males. It would appear than "heat of the moment" domestic violence is more commonly perpetrated by women.

You've just described abuse, in the case of male perpetrators. That is what domestic abuse is. Heat of the moment violence is not sustained abuse. It's not OK, but it's not a history of abuse.

(02-20-2011 01:20 AM)Elijah Craig Wrote: Another popular claim is that domestic violence is the leading killer of women.

Never said anything about this. Why are you bringing it up? To show us how much you care about the fact that women are sometimes killed by intimate partners? Or to discredit the women who are arguing against all abuse, and just trying to tell you there's a disparity in how it happens?

Elijah Craig · (This post was last modified: 02-20-2011 01:17 PM by Elijah Craig.)

LMCoC,

I do see where I made the mistake. You said "let the boys and girls" and my eyes saw "let the boys be boys." I apologize for that particular misunderstanding.

However, I still must object to you accusing me of not caring and launching into such a tirade as if I'm minimizing abuse. I called out Naomi's statement that female domestic violence is "very rare." That is pure bullshit and I have no nicer term for it. If it feels to you like I'm trying some sort of "you do it too" to justify men, then you are wrong. I'm not going to continue a conversation where people feel like they have a right to float BS like Naomi does, such as female-initiated domestic violence being rare and cops not being trained for domestic violence calls. If you truly are interested in all victims, then you should feel uncomfortable with her claims rather than rush to her defense.

**Naomi** · (This post was last modified: 02-20-2011 02:13 PM by Naomi.)

May I draw your attention to this?

(02-20-2011 11:07 AM)Naomi Wrote:
(02-20-2011 12:38 AM)Elijah Craig Wrote: Pre-meditated, systemic domestic violence motivated by a desire to control is more likely to be perpetrated by males. It would appear than "heat of the moment" domestic violence is more commonly perpetrated by women.

You've just described abuse, in the case of male perpetrators. That is what domestic abuse is. Heat of the moment violence is not sustained abuse. It's not OK, but it's not a history of abuse.

(02-20-2011 12:43 PM)Elijah Craig Wrote: I called out Naomi's statement that female domestic violence is "very rare." That is pure bullshit and I have no nicer term for it.

I think your stance is actually dangerous, and I've refrained from swearing at anyone. This conversation makes me ill.

Edit: In fact, although I am confident this was not your intention, men, the amount of support being given to comments downplaying the actual occurrence of abuse scares me. I feel, whether or not you think this is a justified feeling (which is, frankly, irrelevant), like I cannot trust you. An unfortunate byproduct, I'm sure. This conversation has left me shaking and scared, and occasionally in tears. But I do feel you should know exactly how this affects me, even if it doesn't bother you, because it does seem to be affecting me in a different way than you (because this could happen to me, and I know it, and I've seen what it does to women I truly care about, and I'm guessing you would never believe it could happen to you and probably don't know survivors closely). In the interest of personal health, I'm taking a break.

Speaking of intellectual dishonesty, refusing to look at a source because you think you disagree with the author's philosophy and know better isn't exactly high on the list of admirable responses.

***Darrell*** · 02-20-2011, 02:28 PM

Quote:I'm guessing you would never believe it could happen to you and probably don't know survivors closely

That's quite an assumption given that you don't know him at all.

Elijah Craig · (This post was last modified: 02-20-2011 08:48 PM by Elijah Craig.)

I know survivors, I am a survivor, and I was close to some who didn't survive. I haven't mentioned it because it isn't really relevant and doing so is usually cheap, low-class debate trick.

But I'm more than survivor: I am an overcomer. I see evil as a personal choice that people make regardless of race, sex, or ideological background. It sounds to me like Naomi still has some stuff to overcome.

So yeah, I've not been reading anything she's written for the last few posts.

Jenn · 02-20-2011, 09:21 PM

I agree with everyone that violence against anyone is under reported. And that it's really really bad in every town in every country. I don't really understand how this issue is a heated debate. It's bad against women, against men, against children, the disabled, the elderly... babies in the womb and out of the womb. I'm not sure what to do about it. Does anyone know what to do about it?