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**LMcC** · 02-21-2011, 07:06 PM

(02-21-2011 06:44 PM)Donb123 Wrote: Wouldn't it be a good idea to drop all this?

You know greg isn't going to drop this. Naomi and I have already said we're in favor of fair treatment of both male and female victims of violence, so we have no idea what he's really going off about, much less how to settle him down.

greg · 02-21-2011, 07:36 PM

I abhor domestic violence. I have been on the forefront of this battle for the past 22 years until I retired in 2009. I promise every one here that fundamentalist men abusing women because they believe the bible says that's ok is not a high enough percentage to be on any chart. Also the antiquated idea that men see themselves as masters over women and that is why they assault them is also an extremely small percentage. Men and women abuse and assault one another because they get mad at the other for what ever reason, and alcohol and drugs play a huge role.

It's just that simple, any notion that men are always the abusers can be quickly refuted by going into any police station or sheriffs office and asking someone that handles these type of calls.

**LMcC** · (This post was last modified: 02-21-2011 07:59 PM by LMcC.)

(02-21-2011 07:36 PM)greg Wrote: I abhor domestic violence. I have been on the forefront of this battle for the past 22 years until I retired in 2009. I promise every one here that fundamentalist men abusing women because they believe the bible says that's ok is not a high enough percentage to be on any chart. Also the antiquated idea that men see themselves as masters over women and that is why they assault them is also an extremely small percentage. Men and women abuse and assault one another because they get mad at the other for what ever reason, and alcohol and drugs play a huge role.

It's just that simple, any notion that men are always the abusers can be quickly refuted by going into any police station or sheriffs office and asking someone that handles these type of calls.

It's a shame you've been so uncivil, really, because now you're saying something that can easily be addressed.

First, you've consistently ignored that I've said repeatedly that all victims of abuse should get the help they need, regardless of sex. Of course, you will ignore this. I expect nothing less from you by now. I must give you credit for consistency.

Second, chances are you didn't see many calls from Fundy homes for a critical reason: Many Fundamentalists have been trained to distrust any civil authority.

Schools and children's homes are very frequently unaccredited. This is done in the name of academic and religious freedom, but it actually hid substandard education and abuse. This was really nuts for the kids because (and I speak as one of the students) we were taught not to respect police. We were told all kinds of stories about kids getting shipped off to abusive foster homes if they told police anything. In my day, we were told about police persecuting an unaccredited Christian school and jailing students' fathers, and we feared the day it would happen to our school. Trust police? No way.

Children and teens are not taught to go to police when they are abused, but to their pastors. If the pastor is unsympathetic, the child gets no help and is simply sent back to the abuser. The child is blamed for the abuse. Same for abused wives, especially if she grew up in the system. She's not going to the cops, especially if both her husband and pastor agree in front of her that she's unsubmissive and the abuse is all her fault.

You probably don't see those cases as a cop because the people who needed you the most were taught not to trust you and not even try to get help. Not just the women... the boys and girls as well. Yes, I said abused boys. Get this on record. Boys. Let me say it again. Boys. Do you get it yet? Boys. Boys. B.O.Y.S. (Oh, why do I bother? He won't read it.)

Even when abused spouses and kids do go for help, they often are not believed. If you are on Facebook, go lurk and read about the New Bethany and Hephzibah House survivors. I would say ask about Camp Tracey, but they locked down their mailing list some time ago. Several CT kids (and at least one church staff child -- scroll down) have been trying to file lawsuits for years without success.

As I mentioned before. read J. Lee Grady's book "Ten Lies Men Believe". He's been traveling the world and has documented abuse against women and the church's failure to address it. Read it.

**diachenko** · 02-21-2011, 08:33 PM

(02-21-2011 07:36 PM)greg Wrote: . I promise every one here that fundamentalist men abusing women because they believe the bible says that's ok is not a high enough percentage to be on any chart. Also the antiquated idea that men see themselves as masters over women and that is why they assault them is also an extremely small percentage.

I'm curious as to how you would back up those claims.

greg · 02-22-2011, 11:01 AM

(02-21-2011 07:58 PM)LMcC Wrote:
(02-21-2011 07:36 PM)greg Wrote: I abhor domestic violence. I have been on the forefront of this battle for the past 22 years until I retired in 2009. I promise every one here that fundamentalist men abusing women because they believe the bible says that's ok is not a high enough percentage to be on any chart. Also the antiquated idea that men see themselves as masters over women and that is why they assault them is also an extremely small percentage. Men and women abuse and assault one another because they get mad at the other for what ever reason, and alcohol and drugs play a huge role.

It's just that simple, any notion that men are always the abusers can be quickly refuted by going into any police station or sheriffs office and asking someone that handles these type of calls.

It's a shame you've been so uncivil, really, because now you're saying something that can easily be addressed.

First, you've consistently ignored that I've said repeatedly that all victims of abuse should get the help they need, regardless of sex. Of course, you will ignore this. I expect nothing less from you by now. I must give you credit for consistency.

Second, chances are you didn't see many calls from Fundy homes for a critical reason: Many Fundamentalists have been trained to distrust any civil authority.

Schools and children's homes are very frequently unaccredited. This is done in the name of academic and religious freedom, but it actually hid substandard education and abuse. This was really nuts for the kids because (and I speak as one of the students) we were taught not to respect police. We were told all kinds of stories about kids getting shipped off to abusive foster homes if they told police anything. In my day, we were told about police persecuting an unaccredited Christian school and jailing students' fathers, and we feared the day it would happen to our school. Trust police? No way.

Children and teens are not taught to go to police when they are abused, but to their pastors. If the pastor is unsympathetic, the child gets no help and is simply sent back to the abuser. The child is blamed for the abuse. Same for abused wives, especially if she grew up in the system. She's not going to the cops, especially if both her husband and pastor agree in front of her that she's unsubmissive and the abuse is all her fault.

You probably don't see those cases as a cop because the people who needed you the most were taught not to trust you and not even try to get help. Not just the women... the boys and girls as well. Yes, I said abused boys. Get this on record. Boys. Let me say it again. Boys. Do you get it yet? Boys. Boys. B.O.Y.S. (Oh, why do I bother? He won't read it.)

Even when abused spouses and kids do go for help, they often are not believed. If you are on Facebook, go lurk and read about the New Bethany and Hephzibah House survivors. I would say ask about Camp Tracey, but they locked down their mailing list some time ago. Several CT kids (and at least one church staff child -- scroll down) have been trying to file lawsuits for years without success.

As I mentioned before. read J. Lee Grady's book "Ten Lies Men Believe". He's been traveling the world and has documented abuse against women and the church's failure to address it. Read it.

I hate to be so uncivil (not) but you have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about, none! You have no clue about about domestic violence at all, and its causes, or who the victims are and why, as a matter of fact, the foolishness you put on this public forum is acually damaging to the cause of domestic violence victims. As I said before every time you post you continue to display your ignorance.

Now your whole premise for this new piece of disinformation is that "Fundamentalists have been trained to distrust civil authority" well guess what "expert" 95% of the calls don't come from the victim's house, they come from the neighbors and family members.

I am about sick of the topic, but I am sure to continue to refute your silly fiction as regards to this topic.

Oh, btw, wonder if J. Lee Grady has personally investigated thousands of cases of domestic violence, recorded victim statements, took the photos, stood by the hospital bed, hand out teddy bears to the children, walked hundreds of cases through the judicial process, gone to social services for hearings to testify of the abuse to the children.

I don't know where you are located, but let me suggest something to you, most police and sheriff departments offer ride-along programs, you would really benefit riding along and actually "seeing" how these cases get reported and handled.

I know you care about victims of domestic abuse, but don't think you understand it because you read a book. If in fact you or someone you know has been involved in domestic abuse (most have) that is just one unique case.

**LMcC** · 02-22-2011, 12:23 PM

(02-22-2011 11:01 AM)greg Wrote: I hate to be so uncivil (not) but you have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about, none! You have no clue about about domestic violence at all, and its causes, or who the victims are and why, as a matter of fact, the foolishness you put on this public forum is acually damaging to the cause of domestic violence victims. As I said before every time you post you continue to display your ignorance.

Oh yeah, according to you, it's impossible for me to have any idea what I'm talking about. All the authors I've read, the victims who have told me things, yeah. Only you know anything, and anyone who disagrees with you is wrong. Whatever.

Quote:Now your whole premise for this new piece of disinformation is that "Fundamentalists have been trained to distrust civil authority" well guess what "expert" 95% of the calls don't come from the victim's house, they come from the neighbors and family members.

Disinformation? If you want to complain about disinformation, go back to the 80s when all the hysteria was going on. Oh, I guess the people at my church don't exist since they don't fit your worldview. I guess Everett Sileven's church and school didn't really exist, which fueled the hysteria. (I am not a fan of Sileven at all, but fundy conspiracy theorists got a lot of mileage out of that man.)

I've been one of those people who has called on an abusive husband. It's easy to do when one lives in an apartment, condo, or tightly-packed subdivision. Not so easy for those who live on larger areas of land or out in the boonies.

Quote:I am about sick of the topic, but I am sure to continue to refute your silly fiction as regards to this topic.

Actually, you haven't refuted jack. You're just blowing smoke and causing controversy where there should be none because you like pot-stirring. You're still acting like I have not said (and here we go again because you still won't read it) all victims of violence deserve the help they need, regardless of sex.

Quote:Oh, btw, wonder if J. Lee Grady has personally investigated thousands of cases of domestic violence, recorded victim statements, took the photos, stood by the hospital bed, hand out teddy bears to the children, walked hundreds of cases through the judicial process, gone to social services for hearings to testify of the abuse to the children.

Ask him yourself. Go ahead. He's a well-known author and speaker who has been ministering to men and women well over ten years. His stuff gets published in Christianity Today. He's the author of at least three books. Ask him about what happened in his services in Bolivia and Ukraine when he asked abused women to come forward. Oh yeah, you'd probably say a whole roomful of women wouldn't know what they were talking about.

Quote:I don't know where you are located, but let me suggest something to you, most police and sheriff departments offer ride-along programs, you would really benefit riding along and actually "seeing" how these cases get reported and handled.

I have a friend in the department, and I can easily take him up on that if it exists in our area. If not him, then the cop who has come to our Neighborhood Watch meetings who has spoken at length about domestic violence and sexual assault.

Quote:I know you care about victims of domestic abuse, but don't think you understand it because you read a book. If in fact you or someone you know has been involved in domestic abuse (most have) that is just one unique case.

Wow, you said one positive thing about me. How hard was it to choke that out? So hard to admit I actually care, as does Naomi. It's more than just reading *a* book, as you so condescendingly put it. It's been finding out that your close friend was molested on school grounds and had nobody to tell until well after graduation. It's finding out your own church covered up child abuse and got away with it. It's finding out someone you thought you knew molested a little girl or beat a kid bloody. It's finding out the nicest lady in church was being raped by her husband in front of their children. It's being there in person and online when someone has finally told for the first time what really happened in their "Christian" home. It's been a forum moderator for a bunch of Christians whose churches couldn't deal with domestic violence and sexual assault. It's been making phone calls across country to stop a suicidal person from carrying out a threat. It's being there when a man says he is perfectly willing to allow his sister to be beaten by an abusive husband, and is willing to let her be murdered because he thinks the Bible allows it. It's dealing with real people and not just case numbers. But oh, I'm not a cop so I don't count, and those people don't fit your worldview so they don't count. Whatever.

This is actually really sad: Not one person has defended domestic violence (which is better than I've seen in years on the old BBSes), not one person has said anything about one sex victim being less deserving of help then another, yet you are completely bent out of shape over... something nobody can comprehend. Do us all a favor, admit you just like to gripe. You've done it here, and you've done it to the Calvinists.

**diachenko** · 02-22-2011, 06:33 PM

(02-22-2011 12:23 PM)LMcC Wrote:
(02-22-2011 11:01 AM)greg Wrote: I hate to be so uncivil (not) but you have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about, none! You have no clue about about domestic violence at all, and its causes, or who the victims are and why, as a matter of fact, the foolishness you put on this public forum is acually damaging to the cause of domestic violence victims. As I said before every time you post you continue to display your ignorance.

Oh yeah, according to you, it's impossible for me to have any idea what I'm talking about. All the authors I've read, the victims who have told me things, yeah. Only you know anything, and anyone who disagrees with you is wrong. Whatever.

Quote:Now your whole premise for this new piece of disinformation is that "Fundamentalists have been trained to distrust civil authority" well guess what "expert" 95% of the calls don't come from the victim's house, they come from the neighbors and family members.

Disinformation? If you want to complain about disinformation, go back to the 80s when all the hysteria was going on. Oh, I guess the people at my church don't exist since they don't fit your worldview. I guess Everett Sileven's church and school didn't really exist, which fueled the hysteria. (I am not a fan of Sileven at all, but fundy conspiracy theorists got a lot of mileage out of that man.)

I've been one of those people who has called on an abusive husband. It's easy to do when one lives in an apartment, condo, or tightly-packed subdivision. Not so easy for those who live on larger areas of land or out in the boonies.

Quote:I am about sick of the topic, but I am sure to continue to refute your silly fiction as regards to this topic.

Actually, you haven't refuted jack. You're just blowing smoke and causing controversy where there should be none because you like pot-stirring. You're still acting like I have not said (and here we go again because you still won't read it) all victims of violence deserve the help they need, regardless of sex.

Quote:Oh, btw, wonder if J. Lee Grady has personally investigated thousands of cases of domestic violence, recorded victim statements, took the photos, stood by the hospital bed, hand out teddy bears to the children, walked hundreds of cases through the judicial process, gone to social services for hearings to testify of the abuse to the children.

Ask him yourself. Go ahead. He's a well-known author and speaker who has been ministering to men and women well over ten years. His stuff gets published in Christianity Today. He's the author of at least three books. Ask him about what happened in his services in Bolivia and Ukraine when he asked abused women to come forward. Oh yeah, you'd probably say a whole roomful of women wouldn't know what they were talking about.

Quote:I don't know where you are located, but let me suggest something to you, most police and sheriff departments offer ride-along programs, you would really benefit riding along and actually "seeing" how these cases get reported and handled.

I have a friend in the department, and I can easily take him up on that if it exists in our area. If not him, then the cop who has come to our Neighborhood Watch meetings who has spoken at length about domestic violence and sexual assault.

Quote:I know you care about victims of domestic abuse, but don't think you understand it because you read a book. If in fact you or someone you know has been involved in domestic abuse (most have) that is just one unique case.

Wow, you said one positive thing about me. How hard was it to choke that out? So hard to admit I actually care, as does Naomi. It's more than just reading *a* book, as you so condescendingly put it. It's been finding out that your close friend was molested on school grounds and had nobody to tell until well after graduation. It's finding out your own church covered up child abuse and got away with it. It's finding out someone you thought you knew molested a little girl or beat a kid bloody. It's finding out the nicest lady in church was being raped by her husband in front of their children. It's being there in person and online when someone has finally told for the first time what really happened in their "Christian" home. It's been a forum moderator for a bunch of Christians whose churches couldn't deal with domestic violence and sexual assault. It's been making phone calls across country to stop a suicidal person from carrying out a threat. It's being there when a man says he is perfectly willing to allow his sister to be beaten by an abusive husband, and is willing to let her be murdered because he thinks the Bible allows it. It's dealing with real people and not just case numbers. But oh, I'm not a cop so I don't count, and those people don't fit your worldview so they don't count. Whatever.

This is actually really sad: Not one person has defended domestic violence (which is better than I've seen in years on the old BBSes), not one person has said anything about one sex victim being less deserving of help then another, yet you are completely bent out of shape over... something nobody can comprehend. Do us all a favor, admit you just like to gripe. You've done it here, and you've done it to the Calvinists.

Where is the "like, like, like!" button when I need it!

greg · 02-22-2011, 06:45 PM

(02-22-2011 12:23 PM)LMcC Wrote:
(02-22-2011 11:01 AM)greg Wrote: I hate to be so uncivil (not) but you have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about, none! You have no clue about about domestic violence at all, and its causes, or who the victims are and why, as a matter of fact, the foolishness you put on this public forum is acually damaging to the cause of domestic violence victims. As I said before every time you post you continue to display your ignorance.

Oh yeah, according to you, it's impossible for me to have any idea what I'm talking about. All the authors I've read, the victims who have told me things, yeah. Only you know anything, and anyone who disagrees with you is wrong. Whatever.

Quote:Now your whole premise for this new piece of disinformation is that "Fundamentalists have been trained to distrust civil authority" well guess what "expert" 95% of the calls don't come from the victim's house, they come from the neighbors and family members.

Disinformation? If you want to complain about disinformation, go back to the 80s when all the hysteria was going on. Oh, I guess the people at my church don't exist since they don't fit your worldview. I guess Everett Sileven's church and school didn't really exist, which fueled the hysteria. (I am not a fan of Sileven at all, but fundy conspiracy theorists got a lot of mileage out of that man.)

I've been one of those people who has called on an abusive husband. It's easy to do when one lives in an apartment, condo, or tightly-packed subdivision. Not so easy for those who live on larger areas of land or out in the boonies.

Quote:I am about sick of the topic, but I am sure to continue to refute your silly fiction as regards to this topic.

Actually, you haven't refuted jack. You're just blowing smoke and causing controversy where there should be none because you like pot-stirring. You're still acting like I have not said (and here we go again because you still won't read it) all victims of violence deserve the help they need, regardless of sex.

Quote:Oh, btw, wonder if J. Lee Grady has personally investigated thousands of cases of domestic violence, recorded victim statements, took the photos, stood by the hospital bed, hand out teddy bears to the children, walked hundreds of cases through the judicial process, gone to social services for hearings to testify of the abuse to the children.

Ask him yourself. Go ahead. He's a well-known author and speaker who has been ministering to men and women well over ten years. His stuff gets published in Christianity Today. He's the author of at least three books. Ask him about what happened in his services in Bolivia and Ukraine when he asked abused women to come forward. Oh yeah, you'd probably say a whole roomful of women wouldn't know what they were talking about.

Quote:I don't know where you are located, but let me suggest something to you, most police and sheriff departments offer ride-along programs, you would really benefit riding along and actually "seeing" how these cases get reported and handled.

I have a friend in the department, and I can easily take him up on that if it exists in our area. If not him, then the cop who has come to our Neighborhood Watch meetings who has spoken at length about domestic violence and sexual assault.

Quote:I know you care about victims of domestic abuse, but don't think you understand it because you read a book. If in fact you or someone you know has been involved in domestic abuse (most have) that is just one unique case.

Wow, you said one positive thing about me. How hard was it to choke that out? So hard to admit I actually care, as does Naomi. It's more than just reading *a* book, as you so condescendingly put it. It's been finding out that your close friend was molested on school grounds and had nobody to tell until well after graduation. It's finding out your own church covered up child abuse and got away with it. It's finding out someone you thought you knew molested a little girl or beat a kid bloody. It's finding out the nicest lady in church was being raped by her husband in front of their children. It's being there in person and online when someone has finally told for the first time what really happened in their "Christian" home. It's been a forum moderator for a bunch of Christians whose churches couldn't deal with domestic violence and sexual assault. It's been making phone calls across country to stop a suicidal person from carrying out a threat. It's being there when a man says he is perfectly willing to allow his sister to be beaten by an abusive husband, and is willing to let her be murdered because he thinks the Bible allows it. It's dealing with real people and not just case numbers. But oh, I'm not a cop so I don't count, and those people don't fit your worldview so they don't count. Whatever.

This is actually really sad: Not one person has defended domestic violence (which is better than I've seen in years on the old BBSes), not one person has said anything about one sex victim being less deserving of help then another, yet you are completely bent out of shape over... something nobody can comprehend. Do us all a favor, admit you just like to Igripe. You've done it here, and you've done it to the Calvinists.

I'm "bent out of shape" as you say, because domestic violence is a life-threatening problem, and having folks bloviate about it, that obviously don't know what they are talking about, adds to the confusion, and does not help, and in fact hurts. If anything victims of domestic abuse need "real" help and understanding, not someone trying to tell them some foreign fairy tales, made up from the mind of someone that has watched too much television. Oh, almost forgot, and one time read a book about it.

**LMcC** · 02-22-2011, 07:51 PM

(02-22-2011 06:45 PM)greg Wrote: I'm "bent out of shape" as you say, because domestic violence is a life-threatening problem, and having folks bloviate about it, that obviously don't know what they are talking about, adds to the confusion, and does not help, and in fact hurts.

Oh, let's talk about bloviating. You haven't added jack of significance to the discussion, and in fact, you haven't even let a discussion begin. It's all been about trying to do something about your insults and accusations.

Quote:If anything victims of domestic abuse need "real" help and understanding, not someone trying to tell them some foreign fairy tales, made up from the mind of someone that has watched too much television. Oh, almost forgot, and one time read a book about it.

Oh, wow, greg, that's scuzzy, low, and hateful even for you. But then you admit you don't read my posts, and we really can't expect anything less.

I'm not addressing him anymore. This is for everyone else:

Contrary to his blatantly false accusation about me telling " foreign fairy tales, made up from the mind of someone that has watched too much television. Oh, almost forgot, and one time read a book about it", there's a story I don't often tell these days from the old BBSes which will prove him wrong. Several of us Christian school graduates participated in and eventually even moderated "Survivors" forums. In these private forums, people opened up about their personal horrors of domestic violence, sexual abuse, and other related things. When the Christian BBSes began, we immediately requested and got Survivors forums on them. We were shocked, once we got away from the secular BBSes, how many Christians were coming forward with their own accounts of abuse and how horribly the church had treated them afterwards. We went on crash courses learning about secular resources, helping people find counselors and other assistance in their areas, and doing our research (that's more than "one book", for those who can read). We spent our own time and money making cross-country phone calls just so people could have someone listen to them who gave a flip and wasn't going to point fingers. Some of us made phone calls across the country to try to get help for a suicidal forum member. Some of us even traveled to meet one another and break the isolation that the aftermath of violence and abuse brings. "Maybe read one book about it"? More like "got where the victims really were".

greg · 02-22-2011, 08:04 PM

If I could be of any help to anyone, regarding this issue of domestic violence, please feel free to contact me. I will not judge you, nor try to put you into some dreamed-up category of victimology. I will give up to date information, and try to make you aware of resoures availabe to you. The absolute main thing is to get you into a safe situation.