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**Naomi** · 02-19-2011, 03:21 PM

I should point out that I had not yet specifically addressed police officers, and there is a reason. It's fairly complicated. First, most police departments are not specifically trained on domestic abuse cases. If dealing with those cases takes special skills, it would make sense that police who have not been trained might not be seeing the whole picture (like with child abuse cases - things are not always as they seem, because abusers skew the story). Second, it is not the job of the police to determine who is actually abusive. The police respond to calls, listen, take statements, collect evidence - and pass it on to the courts. It is the job of the judicial system to determine guilt.

Greg, quit making personal attacks on me. It is offensive to call anyone a "feminazi."

No, it is never OK for anyone to hit another person. Self-defense is OK, but even the police know that you cannot respond with unequal force to a personal attack or the original "defender" can be charged with assault/battery. The situations you've described, Greg, sound like classic examples of domestic abuse where it's quite possible the male is actually the abuser. Usually, the abuser is quite calm, and the victim seems disturbed. One could ask what the husband was doing before the wife used a knife? In some cases, that might change your assessment of the situation.

Once again, I've never said adult men are never abused by adult women. People do not seem to be reading very carefully. I'm sorry you were assaulted by women (and men) while on the job as a police officer, Greg. Please remember that domestic abuse (especially sustained abuse) is not the same as assaulting a cop.

Quote:When women decide to give up on the relationship for what ever the reason, they have provoked men to hit them.

Oh, so it's their fault, is it? Silly women, forcing men to hit them. Shouldn't have upset their fragile husbands. We all know they can't control themselves. That's the wife's job, amirite? /sarcasm. Actually, feminists expect better of men. Feminists think men are mature, capable human beings, who are not unable to control their violence/lust, and who are great caretakers and can excel at domestic work. I believe men can take responsibility for themselves, and I expect them to.

I'm shocked you, as a police officer, would believe it's OK for a man to hit a woman destroying his property. If she keys his Corvette, charge her for destroying it and get the car fixed. A man who chooses to control his impulses would never hit his partner. I'm also shocked that you believe it's OK for a man to give a woman a black eye for slapping him. A woman should never slap a man (physical violence isn't OK!), but a man who chooses to control his impulses would never punch her in the face for that. Taking action to defend himself from further harm is almost never going to require such force. These statements are called victim-blaming.

I will assume none of the other men arguing that women frequently abuse men agree with these statements by Greg unless informed otherwise.

greg · 02-19-2011, 05:25 PM

(02-19-2011 03:21 PM)Naomi Wrote: I should point out that I had not yet specifically addressed police officers, and there is a reason. It's fairly complicated. First, most police departments are not specifically trained on domestic abuse cases. If dealing with those cases takes special skills, it would make sense that police who have not been trained might not be seeing the whole picture (like with child abuse cases - things are not always as they seem, because abusers skew the story). Second, it is not the job of the police to determine who is actually abusive. The police respond to calls, listen, take statements, collect evidence - and pass it on to the courts. It is the job of the judicial system to determine guilt.

Greg, quit making personal attacks on me. It is offensive to call anyone a "feminazi."

No, it is never OK for anyone to hit another person. Self-defense is OK, but even the police know that you cannot respond with unequal force to a personal attack or the original "defender" can be charged with assault/battery. The situations you've described, Greg, sound like classic examples of domestic abuse where it's quite possible the male is actually the abuser. Usually, the abuser is quite calm, and the victim seems disturbed. One could ask what the husband was doing before the wife used a knife? In some cases, that might change your assessment of the situation.

Once again, I've never said adult men are never abused by adult women. People do not seem to be reading very carefully. I'm sorry you were assaulted by women (and men) while on the job as a police officer, Greg. Please remember that domestic abuse (especially sustained abuse) is not the same as assaulting a cop.

Quote:When women decide to give up on the relationship for what ever the reason, they have provoked men to hit them.

Oh, so it's their fault, is it? Silly women, forcing men to hit them. Shouldn't have upset their fragile husbands. We all know they can't control themselves. That's the wife's job, amirite? /sarcasm. Actually, feminists expect better of men. Feminists think men are mature, capable human beings, who are not unable to control their violence/lust, and who are great caretakers and can excel at domestic work. I believe men can take responsibility for themselves, and I expect them to.

I'm shocked you, as a police officer, would believe it's OK for a man to hit a woman destroying his property. If she keys his Corvette, charge her for destroying it and get the car fixed. A man who chooses to control his impulses would never hit his partner. I'm also shocked that you believe it's OK for a man to give a woman a black eye for slapping him. A woman should never slap a man (physical violence isn't OK!), but a man who chooses to control his impulses would never punch her in the face for that. Taking action to defend himself from further harm is almost never going to require such force. These statements are called victim-blaming.

I will assume none of the other men arguing that women frequently abuse men agree with these statements by Greg unless informed otherwise.

I was highly trained to investigate domestic violence cases. I received training on all aspects of domestic violence, evidence gathering, we received specialized training to take juvenile statements, aggressor, witness, victim statements etc. Our department was among the first in the state to receive special cameras just for domestic violence cases and of course we had special training in order to use the cameras. We recd training on the cycles of violence. We also had a domestic violence coordinator that reviewed all domestic violence cases and arrests and followed those cases through the judicial system.

My statement about women provoking men to hit them happens regularly, but what I should have said was that "some" not "all" women do this. Naomi, I deal in the real world, do you believe that no women try to provoke men to get them to hit them so that they can place themselves in a better position to get the house, the kids, etc come court time? Men have done the same thing, this may shock you but many of the people I dealt with are playing the system. How many times have men been accused of abusing (sexually or physically) their children so that the women have a better chance at custody, and support, it happens all the time, this is one, that in my experience women do more than men.

I'm offended that you act as though I support hitting someone over scratching a car. I am talking about provocation here. A very mild-mannered peace loving guy, that would never dream of hitting his spouse, might do just that after having been subjected to an evening of threats and pushing and shoving, and then to finally get slapped across the face! and then he react too strongly. I'm not condoning it or supporting it, I would in fact arrest him and have dozens of times. The same with a man striking a woman after having been slapped by her, I have had to arrest many over these exact circumstances. I have had men try to leave the house and the women slap and beat on them and not allow them to go until the man has to push or smack her so that he could leave and then, more often than not, the man get arrested.

I don't condone or support anyone hitting on anyone. What I finally had to come to terms with, is, these folks don't live by Greg's rules. There are so-called happily married couples that occasionally get mad with each other and slap one another, I don't like it, but this is the way they choose to live their lives, its not unusual to them. I have a female relative that has, to my knowledge never been in a relationship that she hasn't hit, slapped or kicked her boyfriend, she is violent, and she should get locked up for it, but because the system is slanted to arrest men, she has escaped getting locked up thus far. I have a nephew who is 6'4" and a police officer, he was abused for years by his wife and would never report her, she was 5'2" 120lbs, he was finally able to get away from her and divorced her.

To think for one second that men are always the abusers, is simply ludicrous. I would venture a guess based on my own professional experience that it is about 50/50, I would say that men are responsible for more "serious" injuries relating to domestic violence, primarily because of size, strength differences.

Your uninformed bloviating on this subject is not putting you in a good light, if you wish to support and help female vicitims of domestic violence, have at it, there are many out there, however there is a huge number of male victims that are misunderstood, hurting and not being reprensented properly by the judicial system, very few male shelters for abused men, very little real help at all for male victims of domestic violence.

I'll finish with one more police story, the first domestic violence case that I can remember responding to. A man and his wife were arguing over the man's drinking. The man just wanted the arguing to stop and went to bed, when she was sure he was asleep, the wife got a large potted plant, in those clay looking orange pots and smashed him in the head with it, as he slept, she could have killed him, in fact that may be what she was attempting to do, I can just remember his disbelief that his wife would do something like that to him, yep they got back together.

**Naomi** · 02-19-2011, 05:46 PM

(02-19-2011 05:25 PM)greg Wrote: How many times have men been accused of abusing (sexually or physically) their children so that the women have a better chance at custody, and support, it happens all the time, this is one, that in my experience women do more than men.

If you think false reports happen all the time, you must think there is child abuse going on everywhere. False reports make up only 1-10% of all reports, and are much less likely to be false when reported by the child.

(02-19-2011 05:25 PM)greg Wrote: I am talking about provocation here. A very mild-mannered peace loving guy, that would never dream of hitting his spouse, might do just that after having been subjected to an evening of threats and pushing and shoving, and then to finally get slapped across the face! and then he react too strongly.

I've never hit anyone, no matter the provocation. Even when someone was crossing my physical boundaries. It's possible to remove yourself from the situation instead of lashing out. I take responsibility for my actions. I believe all men should, too.

(02-19-2011 05:25 PM)greg Wrote: To think for one second that men are always the abusers, is simply ludicrous.

Quote where I've said this. Have I not clarified this enough already?

(02-19-2011 05:25 PM)greg Wrote: I would venture a guess based on my own professional experience that it is about 50/50, I would say that men are responsible for more "serious" injuries relating to domestic violence, primarily because of size, strength differences.

People who are experts on this and do peer-reviewed research in domestic abuse disagree with you. Aren't the police there to collect evidence, not determine guilt?

Elijah Craig · (This post was last modified: 02-19-2011 06:33 PM by Elijah Craig.)

(02-19-2011 12:27 PM)LMcC Wrote: Yet you talk like it is.

If people are evil, let the boys and girls get clobbered by their parents. Let the husband beat and rape his wife. Let the pastors molest kids. The world is going to Hell in a handbasket and taking the church with it, so let's not care.

Bullgipp.

Exhibit "A" in people seeing what they want to see. I hope you realize you destroy your credibility with such statements.

I protested the greviously false statement that female-on-male violence is "very rare." I said that men and women both do evil things because both groups contain evil people in roughly the same number. How you got from there to "boys will be boys" cannot be explained except for some cognitive or emotional issue that exists solely inside your head.

It is an intellectually dishonest thing to say. I do not debate with intellectually dishonest people.

Elijah Craig · (This post was last modified: 02-19-2011 06:32 PM by Elijah Craig.)

Domestic violence calls to 911 are one the most frequent kind. To even claim that policemen aren't trained to deal with domestic violence absolutely destroys the credibility of the person making the claim.

A person could watch two or three episodes of COPS and see how difficult domestic violence calls are to handle. Many times one party or the other blatantly makes up the claim. Other times the abuser claims the victim started it. Other times the victim has an attack of Stockholm Syndrome and turns against the cop who is saving them. Sadly, the genuine cases often go unreported because it is the nature of victims to take abuse without asking for help.

Even more sadly, there are a lot of real cases of domestic violence that get ignored because there are so many people who play the system with false claims or true claims they later deny. THAT is why I even bother with this thread... problems don't get properly addressed as long as there are people spouting B.S.

greg · 02-19-2011, 08:00 PM

Both myself and Elijah Craig resented and responded to the fallacy that certain folks were putting out on here that males are not regularly abused by females. That at least was my impetus for responding. I don't think I know something about this, I know exactly what I'm talking about, having been on the front lines for 22 years, domestic violence investigation being one of the main crimes I investigated, that consumed most of my time during my career. Liberal, feminists do not want to believe how violent their heterosexual sisters are (not saying all feminists are gay here)

Our state is a "shall arrest" state. If the law enforcement professional can determine who is the primary physical aggressor, the law "requires" him to arrest on the spot. So go back and watch a couple more episodes of Law and Order, which is one of the most PC shows on television, maybe you missed an episode, which covered that.

Naomi, you can try and pick this comment apart, I would expect nothing less, but you have flapped away about something that you know very little or nothing about, any more posts just continues to make you look foolish.

greg · 02-19-2011, 08:48 PM

(02-19-2011 03:21 PM)Naomi Wrote: I should point out that I had not yet specifically addressed police officers, and there is a reason. It's fairly complicated. First, most police departments are not specifically trained on domestic abuse cases. If dealing with those cases takes special skills, it would make sense that police who have not been trained might not be seeing the whole picture (like with child abuse cases - things are not always as they seem, because abusers skew the story). Second, it is not the job of the police to determine who is actually abusive. The police respond to calls, listen, take statements, collect evidence - and pass it on to the courts. It is the job of the judicial system to determine guilt.

Greg, quit making personal attacks on me. It is offensive to call anyone a "feminazi."

No, it is never OK for anyone to hit another person. Self-defense is OK, but even the police know that you cannot respond with unequal force to a personal attack or the original "defender" can be charged with assault/battery. The situations you've described, Greg, sound like classic examples of domestic abuse where it's quite possible the male is actually the abuser. Usually, the abuser is quite calm, and the victim seems disturbed. One could ask what the husband was doing before the wife used a knife? In some cases, that might change your assessment of the situation.

Once again, I've never said adult men are never abused by adult women. People do not seem to be reading very carefully. I'm sorry you were assaulted by women (and men) while on the job as a police officer, Greg. Please remember that domestic abuse (especially sustained abuse) is not the same as assaulting a cop.

Quote:When women decide to give up on the relationship for what ever the reason, they have provoked men to hit them.

Oh, so it's their fault, is it? Silly women, forcing men to hit them. Shouldn't have upset their fragile husbands. We all know they can't control themselves. That's the wife's job, amirite? /sarcasm. Actually, feminists expect better of men. Feminists think men are mature, capable human beings, who are not unable to control their violence/lust, and who are great caretakers and can excel at domestic work. I believe men can take responsibility for themselves, and I expect them to.

I'm shocked you, as a police officer, would believe it's OK for a man to hit a woman destroying his property. If she keys his Corvette, charge her for destroying it and get the car fixed. A man who chooses to control his impulses would never hit his partner. I'm also shocked that you believe it's OK for a man to give a woman a black eye for slapping him. A woman should never slap a man (physical violence isn't OK!), but a man who chooses to control his impulses would never punch her in the face for that. Taking action to defend himself from further harm is almost never going to require such force. These statements are called victim-blaming.

I will assume none of the other men arguing that women frequently abuse men agree with these statements by Greg unless informed otherwise.

You're right, feminazi was abit much, I apologize

Jenn · 02-19-2011, 08:55 PM

After reading this I feel like dropping potted plants on all of your heads.

***Darrell*** · 02-19-2011, 09:23 PM

(02-19-2011 08:55 PM)Jenn Wrote: After reading this I feel like dropping potted plants on all of your heads.

VIOLENT WOMAN!!! WHERE DOES THE THE HURTING STOP!!!???

Tongue

Elijah Craig · (This post was last modified: 02-20-2011 02:52 AM by Elijah Craig.)

My reason for refusing to read a random book thrown at me is that there is enormous twisting of facts both by feminists and men's rights advocates. Here are a few articles to demonstrate the selective use of facts on this thread. I have chosen to use official government documents to avoid using statistics that have significant confirmation bias.

First, the assertion that psychological research agrees with the statement that domestic violence by women against men is "very rare":

Psychiatric News of the American Psychiatric Association, "Men Shouldn't Be Overlooked As Victims of Partner Violence", by Joan Arehart-Treichel, August 3, 2007.

http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/content/42/15/31.2.full

11,370 person survey by the Centers for Disease Control of young heterosexual adults found that:

24% of persons report having been in a violent relationship.

Roughly half of violent relationships resulted in two-way violence. Half resulted in violence by one partner against the other that was not reciprocated.

Of non-reciprocal violence, 70% was from women.

Violence by men is usually reciprocated by the woman; violence by women is usually not returned by the man. Violence by men against women is far more likely to result in injury or death, as is to be expected from the relative differences in size and strength.

Second the assertion that police and social workers believe domestic violence by women against men is "very rare":

2000 study by National Institute for Justice and the Center for Disease Control:
http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/183781.pdf

24% of women and 9% of men report being assaulted by a current of previous partner

1.3% of women and 0.9% of men report being victimized in the previous year.

From the website of the National Institute for Justice:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/nij/topics/crim...suring.htm

Article discusses the varying results of studies based on assumptions and contexts. When the statistics used involve criminal or hospital statistics, the numbers implicated men by a 3:1 margin. When the statistics are derived from surveys the numbers are more equal, sometimes even implicating women more. Pre-meditated, systemic domestic violence motivated by a desire to control is more likely to be perpetrated by males. It would appear than "heat of the moment" domestic violence is more commonly perpetrated by women.

FBI statistics on crime are problematical because they rely on reporting from the states. Not all states are equally accurate or cooperative in their reporting to the Federal government. FBI crime statistics also measure only arrests and prosecution, not actual incidents of crime. The quality of law enformcement can vary substantially from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

Survey results are problematical because they rely on the honesty of the respondent and their willingness to respond. Shame can be a big hindrance. Blind surveys are generally used to counter act this.

Criminal reporting of domestic violence would indicate men are more likely to abuse. However, this measures arrests or convictions, which requires the crime to be first brought to the attention of police. Surveys result in a picture that is far different, indicating that female on male violence is indeed greatly under-reported.