What is it with fundies and hating Catholics?

[That'sWhatItSays]

Your link about Operation Condor was very interesting, Ricardo. It suggests that American involvement was in a supervisory role for a nexus of intelligence groups opposed to socialism and communism. This nexus was responsible for the deaths of thousands of leftists and leftist sympathizers.

You make a lot of sense, Ricardo. I tend to defend life, liberty, and the American way (in the scope of human history, we've done quite well for ourselves), but I will admit that not to be "entirely" the truth. When we speak of American interventionism, we have to understand that we are talking about the CIA, an organization that felt that in order to play ball with the KGB, you're going to have to get a little dirty. I want to think the best of my country, but it is clear that CIA influence in various countries has not always ended as favorably as the American people would like. I think many Americans want to take a non-interventionist approach to the rest of the world, but when we complain to our representatives, we find that there is, in essence, a secret government that is really calling the shots and that our elected officials and opinions always take a back seat to the unelected powers. As it comes to international politics, the CIA is that power. We must also remember, however, that the Soviet Union was not "always" on the brink of collapse. In fact, many of these activities had their beginning in the 1950's because of the threat of Soviet Expansion in the Americas almost immediately after World War II. The documents suggest Truman and the CIA hatched the plan to use Somoza to overthrow Guatemalan communists in 1952.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB4/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_PBHISTORY
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PBSUCCESS

However, like so many other things in this world, what starts off with somewhat good intentions degenerates into tyranny. Somoza, like Saddam, like Mubarak, like Karzai, like Noriega (who has an interesting conversion story http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuel_Noriega http://www.arm.org/noriega.htm/ ) ended up being a petty dictator who used his position to build little kingdoms. I don't know if this happens by design (conspiracy view) or reason of pride (spiritual view), but the backing of the CIA seems to lead to it time and time again. The CIA supported any anti-Communist it could find anywhere in the world. Is that such a horrible thing? The people they were supporting were facing the threat of Marxist expansion against their will regardless. For instance, if not for Operation Condor and its like, undoubtedly thousands of anti-communists and anti-Marxists would have been killed in order to put the Soviet-favored powers into place. Mujahideen, militaries, freedom fighters....The American people really couldn't say much against such a program. Our way of thinking had become inextricably linked to fighting communism, and many people around the world loved us for it. I believe that Soviet influence represented a legitimate threat to the freedom of the world, but "at what cost?" is a fair question to ask in hindsight.

Thank you for your perspective, Ricardo. We've really gotten off the subject of Catholicism as a Christian faith, but both you and Daisy have forced me into some valuable reading and reminders of history.

[That'sWhatItSays]

R.W. Thompson's work on the Jesuits and Nicolini's work were the Protestant standards of anti-Jesuitry, and I found them both available online if anyone is interested in reading the strong arguments made about Jesuit interference in world affairs, including numerous allegations of revolution and assassination. The plots against the nephew of Pope Paul IV, Elizabeth of England, Henry IV of France, the Gunpowder Plot (including an analysis of the arguments against Jesuit involvement) and numerous other intrigues are included. The arguments made here are in favor of the view that the Jesuits were disbanded by Clement XIV because of heavy pressure from other countries to eliminate their existence and influence due to the inability for the kingdoms to function without submitting to Jesuit demands, or, in other words, rampant Jesuit disobedience to those authorities that the Jesuits viewed as heretical or otherwise unworthy. These are the arguments against the Jesuits proper.

http://archive.org/stream/historyofjesui...9/mode/2up
http://www.scribd.com/doc/36491296/The-F...W-Thompson

[Ricardo]

"what starts off with somewhat good intentions"

I question this assumption.

In theory, American Foreign Policy suffers from one BASIC contradiction: on one hand we continue to preach that we are the defenders of Democracy in the world. On the other hand, whenever a Democratic process is in any risk of producing an elected leader that may rule against our interests, we will do everything in our power to eliminate this threat, to the point of denying Democracy to large swaths of the world.

The other assumption I vigorously object to is the one where you think that any action against American-supported dictatorships is an act instigated by the enemies of the United States.

Most of the Central Americans I know here in the US have at least one close relative who was murdered by the American-trained forces in their own countries. Surprisingly enough, they hold no animosity toward the US or the US-government.

The wish for a Democratically elected government is not an Anti-American sentiment. On the contrary. Despite a history of over two hundred military interventions by the USA in Latin America AGAINST democratically elected governments, people in Latin America still look up to the USA as the defender of Democracy. You still see every now and then the shrines in people's houses with a yellowed picture of JFK right next to a picture of the Virgin.

Yes, the enemies of America may want to help these people with training and supplies. And with co-opting an honest hope for Democracy into a Marxist experiment.

But don't confuse the honest yearning of people wanting to be free with geopolitical machinations of our enemies.

When I was growing up, we had 13 of the fifteen Latin American governments ruled by dictatorships instigated, trained and supported by the United States. All in the name of denying these countries to the Communists.

"good intentions?"

Toward whom?