A thought

[Tiarali]

Ok, I'm tired tonight, and I readily admit that I cannot keep up with the serious theological debates that some of you guys can get stuck into.

I was thinking today about how horrible the world is. I believe that the current problems in the world are due to the fact that the world has been broken since the fall (I posted this here because I'm sure that would get shot down elsewhere. I'm not posting this to argue that point, just explaining where I'm coming from). I also believe that God doesn't step in and fix things while hurling fire and brimstone these days because he is patient, not willing that any should perish...

But I was thinking that someone had said that they can't understand how God could be a loving God while allowing the sorts of hurts that are in the world. And I GET that. I do. I'm living it. And I'm much, much more impatient than God.

And I was thinking, what if the purpose of the church was to make the world a nicer place. What if God intended for there to be so many christians so we could go around being nice to people and feeding the poor and stuff, and instead we're being so busy arguing about who's in and who's out, and what rules we should have to regulate those who are in, and committees to fundraise for nice buildings for those who are in to meet in and be glad that they're in and not out...

And, really, there are so many people who claim to be christians. If we all just made a lifestyle of random acts of kindness, the world would be a much nicer place. Not fixed. Not perfect. But a bit nicer.

Maybe the hard times would be a bit more bearable, anyway.

Anyway, that's about as deep as I get

[Bob M]

(07-17-2012 08:17 AM)tiarali Wrote:  Ok, I'm tired tonight, and I readily admit that I cannot keep up with the serious theological debates that some of you guys can get stuck into.

I was thinking today about how horrible the world is. I believe that the current problems in the world are due to the fact that the world has been broken since the fall (I posted this here because I'm sure that would get shot down elsewhere. I'm not posting this to argue that point, just explaining where I'm coming from). I also believe that God doesn't step in and fix things while hurling fire and brimstone these days because he is patient, not willing that any should perish...

But I was thinking that someone had said that they can't understand how God could be a loving God while allowing the sorts of hurts that are in the world. And I GET that. I do. I'm living it. And I'm much, much more impatient than God.

And I was thinking, what if the purpose of the church was to make the world a nicer place. What if God intended for there to be so many christians so we could go around being nice to people and feeding the poor and stuff, and instead we're being so busy arguing about who's in and who's out, and what rules we should have to regulate those who are in, and committees to fundraise for nice buildings for those who are in to meet in and be glad that they're in and not out...

And, really, there are so many people who claim to be christians. If we all just made a lifestyle of random acts of kindness, the world would be a much nicer place. Not fixed. Not perfect. But a bit nicer.

Maybe the hard times would be a bit more bearable, anyway.

Anyway, that's about as deep as I get

That IS deep theology. Its called, in tehological circles, Amillenialism. We are supposed to be Christians in the world and make the world more Christian and then once we do, Jesus coimes back.

[Tiarali]

But I don't believe that we have any influence over when Jesus come back or anything - only the Father knows that, and he's not being held hostage by our unwillingness to be nice and play fair.

[pastor's wife]

I don't think one has to hold the amillenial position to think that Christians should try to live out their beliefs much more than they do.
Christians HAVE had tremendous charitable impact on the world from the ending of slavery in England and America to the founding of hospitals and orphanages, but in fundamentalism, we spent a lot more passion and effort arguing about dress codes and Bible versions than loving one another.

Our church has started emphasizing the "one anothers" found in Scripture and how we ought to be living them, both which each other in the church as well as outside the walls.

Certainly there are doctrines to defend, but I don't think they're the ones that fundamentalists keep emphasizing. The book of James is clear that our faith MUST be demonstrated by good works, otherwise it is worthless. And 1 Corinthians 13 says no matter what we believe (even though I have all faith), without love, I am bankrupt.

It IS hard to see the pain that results from living in a broken world. I do long for Christ to redeem it - the Bible talks of all creation GROANING for that redemption and restoration. But I also think that God wait in patience for more to repent, and in the meantime I do believe we are supposed to be living lives so transformed by Christ that we will make an impact on those around us.

[Bob M]

(07-17-2012 09:08 AM)tiarali Wrote:  But I don't believe that we have any influence over when Jesus come back or anything - only the Father knows that, and he's not being held hostage by our unwillingness to be nice and play fair.

I wasn't saying anything about that. Just wanted to point out that there are people who think that what you said is a very deep theological position. i.e. You are deeper, smarter, more theological than you think.

[Papa Bear]

Just wanted to note that its interesting that some Christians, the IFB in particular, but there are others, put so much emphasis on knowing who's in and who's out, when Jesus clearly taught that we can't tell.

[oneflewoutofthecuckcoosnest]

(07-17-2012 08:17 AM)tiarali Wrote:  Ok, I'm tired tonight, and I readily admit that I cannot keep up with the serious theological debates that some of you guys can get stuck into.

I was thinking today about how horrible the world is. I believe that the current problems in the world are due to the fact that the world has been broken since the fall (I posted this here because I'm sure that would get shot down elsewhere. I'm not posting this to argue that point, just explaining where I'm coming from). I also believe that God doesn't step in and fix things while hurling fire and brimstone these days because he is patient, not willing that any should perish...

But I was thinking that someone had said that they can't understand how God could be a loving God while allowing the sorts of hurts that are in the world. And I GET that. I do. I'm living it. And I'm much, much more impatient than God.

And I was thinking, what if the purpose of the church was to make the world a nicer place. What if God intended for there to be so many christians so we could go around being nice to people and feeding the poor and stuff, and instead we're being so busy arguing about who's in and who's out, and what rules we should have to regulate those who are in, and committees to fundraise for nice buildings for those who are in to meet in and be glad that they're in and not out...

And, really, there are so many people who claim to be christians. If we all just made a lifestyle of random acts of kindness, the world would be a much nicer place. Not fixed. Not perfect. But a bit nicer.

Maybe the hard times would be a bit more bearable, anyway.

Anyway, that's about as deep as I get

It could also be called the social gospel. if the gospel isn't social, it isn't useful.

[bean]

I like it Tiarali.
I wonder if I am not an "amillenialist." Who knows. I don't.
I do know I saw a quote the other day on reddit--it was something like: My purpose each day is to learn a little more about my fellow human beings, and to do what I can to alleviate suffering.

Not sure who said it but it was good.
And that's as deep as I can get after an 11.5 hour work day

[That'sWhatItSays]

I absolutely agree with both aspects of Christianity: the need to be doctrinally correct and the need to be a force for good to those around you (Love the Lord God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself).

I don't think people realize how nice the world is as a result of the influence of Christianity. In a sense, Christians have made the world a nicer place. Not that it is a scientific proof, but look at the countries that are hostile to Christianity and tell me whether they are more desirable than Christian-influenced lands. Those lands tend to display what happens to people over time when an overt Christian influence is removed. I'm not saying all countries without Christian influence are third-world hellholes (Japan, for instance), but we tend to view Muslim and Communist lands as undesirable from a basic livability standpoint. Classical evangelical Christianity has often been a strong force opposed to authoritarian rule.

I can also personally attest that Christianity has saved the world from experiencing numerous criminal behaviors!

[Historian]

I think you're right, Tiarali, in that one of the purposes of the Church definitely is to show the love and grace and mercy of God to the world by concrete action and attitude. The Bible is full of commands to that effect. I would hope that those of us who engage in long discussions on theological issues on this site do so because we enjoy talking with one another, love truth and are open to seeing another perspective than our own and learning from others–but that we are also all remembering that such discussions aren't a substitute for serving and loving others in real life as Christ commands. (Though we can of course serve and love each other here, too!)

And I think theology ends up being pretty important. This is just my perspective, so you can take it for what it's worth, or just stop reading at this point! But your theology is going to affect your behavior. If you see humans in the light of passages like Romans 3:10-18, you realize that people (including myself) are–before God–criminals, not victims. If you think about criminals in society, being a criminal doesn't mean you aren't also a victim (many are). And I don't know how many times I've seen or read about a criminal that I wasn't moved with compassion for how they had been brought to that state; how they had been sinned against by others; how miserable they had made themselves; how they'd ruined their own lives, though often with help from others. Not long ago a man here in this country ran into a primary school and killed several children: brutally knifed them to death. It turns out he did this because his own daughter was raped and murdered by the son of a wealthy local official. Naturally in a super-corrupt society like this, the kid was untouchable. His daddy protected him and there was no justice to be had. The father tried everything: every citizen supposedly has the right to take his grievance to the capitol and ask for a hearing, but when he got here he was turned away and threatened with imprisonment if he "disturbed society" any longer. In desperation and fury (and being a slave to his sin nature, as we all are unless liberated by Christ as Paul so beautifully describes it all in Rom 6-7) he decided that murdering other people's children was the only way to make his case public and get attention. You can't help but have compassion on a man in such a position. But in no way does his previous suffering and hardship excuse or erase the horrible crime he committed. No doubt society here, and everywhere, is broken. But for the society here to say "Hey, we understand. You've suffered so much, we just can't punish you for this crime" would not only be unjust, but would unleash the horrors of anarchy.

That's the way I see myself and the whole world, because of theology. No doubt we're all broken and in need of compassion. But whatever we've suffered is no excuse to simply erase crimes against the Creator. We suffer because of our (in the collective sense) sin: no doubt many of us end up suffering because of another person's evil. But we are all rebels against the Creator, and all the suffering around us is the consequence of that collective rebellion. And that's why Christ is the only answer–not just for some future moment, but for right now. His Spirit can liberate an individual from the heavy burden of their own sin nature and restore them from the status of criminal rebel to beloved child. Then that beloved child stays on this broken earth for their lifetime, because it pleases his/her Father to use His children to point other criminals to the answer in Christ, to showcase Christ's love and mercy on those around them, and so bring glory to Himself. I know that by my own efforts I can't bring true and lasting peace to anyone: only the Holy Spirit can do that. But I can demonstrate to them by compassion, love and kindness what kind of love Christ has, and urge them by my words in friendship to be reconciled to God.