Another question regarding the Blood Of Christ.

[Don]

Ok, here is a question that needs to be answered as it has been hinted at in several of our discussions on the blood here recently.

The shedding of the Blood of Jesus is applied to... what?

A. It is applied to earthly things in order to purify them for heavenly service.

B. It is applied according to the law in order to fulfill the law and sanctify the sacrifice.

C. It is applied to the individual believer in order to purify them.

D. Other

Is the shedding of the Blood and it's application corporate or individual?

The OT shadow and type was it was a corporate atonement for the nation Israel. The only individual application was in the purification of the priest. Then he had to offer sacrifice for his own sins before he could offer the blood of Atonement for the people. (We know that with Christ this was not necessary.) So was the sacrifice Jesus made for the atonement of sin, corporate for the entire body of Christ? Or is it an individual application?

[phil]

Welcome newcomer.

(08-28-2012 01:08 PM)Xian Pugilist Wrote:  The blood does nothing.
I John 7? "The blood of Jesus cleaseth us from all sin"
It doesn't force God's hand.

When did Don say it forced God's hand? Don is not the type of guy to think that God's hand can be forced at all.

It doesn't erase what you have done wrong in the past, if it did it would erase the lessons you learned from those things again.

What do you mean by "erase what you have done wrong"? Do you mean erase from time? erase the results of wrongdoing?

Jesus didn't have to die, EXCEPT, that God said He would and that would be the symbol to enable his people with their guilty consciences to stop hiding like adam and come home like the prodigal and be healed.

How exactly does this healing take place?

Are you Christus Victor in your atonement views? It sounds kind of like you are to me with what little I know of the different atonement views.

I guess I"m about to be fried as a heretic.

Well that's not very good to think the worst of us and your brand new. You seem to be protesting some theological beliefs you don't hold, but I'm not exactly sure what those are. Could you elaborate on what you were trying to say.

[phil]

(07-07-2012 01:13 PM)Don Wrote:  Ok, here is a question that needs to be answered as it has been hinted at in several of our discussions on the blood here recently.

The shedding of the Blood of Jesus is applied to... what?

A. It is applied to earthly things in order to purify them for heavenly service.

By earthly things do you mean objects or people? Did you mean to write beings ,but george wrote things?


B. It is applied according to the law in order to fulfill the law and sanctify the sacrifice.
1.Would this be the view that Jesus blood is applied in heaven, but according to the law?

2.Does Jesus fulfill the law quantitativly(every law) or qulatativly(spirit of the law)

C. It is applied to the individual believer in order to purify them.

By blood do you take MacArthur's view that blood means Jesus bloody death?

D. Other

Is the shedding of the Blood and it's application corporate or individual?

The OT shadow and type was it was a corporate atonement for the nation Israel. The only individual application was in the purification of the priest. Then he had to offer sacrifice for his own sins before he could offer the blood of Atonement for the people. (We know that with Christ this was not necessary.) So was the sacrifice Jesus made for the atonement of sin, corporate for the entire body of Christ? Or is it an individual application?

I'm not sure what answer you're looking for. The sacrifice would have to be applied individually and not just automatically work ex-post-facto right? Wouldn't it be applied individually and thus corporately ? Am I misunderstanding the question?

[phil]

With my "thinking the worst of us" comment I was trying to be humorous. It didn't work. Sorry.

I think I get what you were saying on erase the wrong part. Still don't get the need for the force God's hand observation.

The part of your comment on Jesus death as symbolic made me think of Christus Victor, but I'm not sure all that goes into the view either.

Sorry that I read tone into your observasions where there was none.

[Don]

(08-28-2012 03:09 PM)phil Wrote:  

(07-07-2012 01:13 PM)Don Wrote:  Ok, here is a question that needs to be answered as it has been hinted at in several of our discussions on the blood here recently.

The shedding of the Blood of Jesus is applied to... what?

A. It is applied to earthly things in order to purify them for heavenly service.

By earthly things do you mean objects or people? Did you mean to write beings ,but george wrote things?


B. It is applied according to the law in order to fulfill the law and sanctify the sacrifice.
1.Would this be the view that Jesus blood is applied in heaven, but according to the law?

2.Does Jesus fulfill the law quantitativly(every law) or qulatativly(spirit of the law)

C. It is applied to the individual believer in order to purify them.

By blood do you take MacArthur's view that blood means Jesus bloody death?

D. Other

Is the shedding of the Blood and it's application corporate or individual?

The OT shadow and type was it was a corporate atonement for the nation Israel. The only individual application was in the purification of the priest. Then he had to offer sacrifice for his own sins before he could offer the blood of Atonement for the people. (We know that with Christ this was not necessary.) So was the sacrifice Jesus made for the atonement of sin, corporate for the entire body of Christ? Or is it an individual application?

I'm not sure what answer you're looking for. The sacrifice would have to be applied individually and not just automatically work ex-post-facto right? Wouldn't it be applied individually and thus corporately ? Am I misunderstanding the question?

In the Old Testament practice the shedding of blood was required for the High Priest to carry it into the Holy of Holies to offer as a yearly covering for the sins of the people. It had to be done each and every year according to the Law. It was not sprinkled on the individual. It was a corporate covering for the entire nation correct?

Yet there are those who hold to the idea that individuals and even individual sins must be "covered under the blood" in order to be atoned for. When Christ died on the Cross he said, "It is Finished." And when he ascended it is said that he sits at the right hand of the Father, aluding to his work as High Priest is complete. Yet again there are those that hold a view that when an individual is converted and comes to saving belief that they somehow have to be individually covered with the blood of the atonement in heaven.

So was the Christ's atonement a once for all covering for all believers or does it have to be applied to the individual?

Maybe I'm not asking the questions correctly but as I see it the Atonement is corporate for all believers just as the Day of atonement was for the entire nation of Israel. Only, Christ's atonement is complete and his work as the High Priest offering sacrifice for his people is complete.

I do not believe that there is an individual application of Christ's blood to each individual believer as though the believers are in queue for an atonement shower. I understand that yes, the individual is the beneficiary of the corporate atonement. Much like one's birth, you do not have to be individually made a member of the family you were born into, it is your birthright. As a Born again Child of God, one is birthed into the family with all that such a birthright entails.

The individual application view gives the Blood some mystical properties that frankly I cannot see in scripture. The corporate view (to me at least) shows the sufficiency of Christ's Sacrifice. The Sacrifice sanctified the offering of the substance of Life.

(I'll probably need to address this later when I have time to go point by point.)

[phil]

When Don talks about Christ's work as a High Priest being done, I think he means the actual sacrificial work on the cross and how he only had to die once and dies no more as Hebrews says. I don't think he's including the intercessory part that Hebrews mentions. . This is technically an offshoot thread from another thread called "What's with the IFB and the Blood of Christ." You can find it in the Fundy Theology section of the forums main page. It might catch you up to speed on where Don is coming from.

[phil]

(08-28-2012 10:19 PM)phil Wrote:  When Don talks about Christ's work as a High Priest being done, I think he means the actual sacrificial work on the cross and how he only had to die once and dies no more as Hebrews says. I don't think he's including the intercessory part that Hebrews mentions. . This is technically an offshoot thread from another thread called "What's with the IFB and the Blood of Christ." You can find it in the Fundy Theology section of the forums main page. It might catch you up to speed on where Don is coming from.

A minor correction the thread I mentioned is not in Fundy Theology, but General Theology.

[Bob M]

(08-28-2012 01:08 PM)Xian Pugilist Wrote:  The blood does nothing.

It doesn't force God's hand.

It doesn't erase what you have done wrong in the past, if it did it would erase the lessons you learned from those things again.

Jesus didn't have to die, EXCEPT, that God said He would and that would be the symbol to enable his people with their guilty consciences to stop hiding like adam and come home like the prodigal and be healed.

I guess I"m about to be fried as a heretic.

Who knows whether you are nor not. You have not made much clear as to your understanding, just asked a lot of questions, kind of like Rob Bell, the Emergent church leader.

[That'sWhatItSays]

I haven't looked into it any further Don, but the idea of the atonement being corporate would imply that he offered himself one time for the whole world (or in the Reformed sense, for the body of believers, the elect only). Now, my question wouldn't be so much about the New Testament application, but about the OT application. In other words, how did the offering of Leviticus 16 atone for all Israel when there were some "in the camp" who didn't care at all about what the priest was doing for the nation? We also see that in Job where he makes an offering "just in case" one of his kids cursed God (Job 1:5). How does that offering work?

[Don]

(08-29-2012 05:58 AM)ThatsWhatItSays Wrote:  I haven't looked into it any further Don, but the idea of the atonement being corporate would imply that he offered himself one time for the whole world (or in the Reformed sense, for the body of believers, the elect only). Now, my question wouldn't be so much about the New Testament application, but about the OT application. In other words, how did the offering of Leviticus 16 atone for all Israel when there were some "in the camp" who didn't care at all about what the priest was doing for the nation? We also see that in Job where he makes an offering "just in case" one of his kids cursed God (Job 1:5). How does that offering work?

This question really gets to the heart of the point I am trying to make.
The OT Day of Atonement was a corporate level application. Now I believe a solid case can be made that it was only efficacious for the believers in Israel. Those who, as you say, were in the camp but didn't care, were blessed with what one may term "collateral blessing." It's the, "rain on the just and the unjust" image or the Wheat and the Tares image. The individual may not believe, may not care. The atonement was not effectual for the nonbelievers but they benefitted from God's acceptance of the sacrifice offered for the nation's sins.

It was performed for the corporate covering of their sin, and was not applied to the individual believers. (I realize blood was used in different ways for different sacrifices but for our purpose were are limiting the conversation to the Atonement.) That has significant impact on NT theology regarding Christ's atonement I believe.