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~~Zadig~~ · (This post was last modified: 07-03-2012 04:58 PM by Zadig.)

One of the more emotional fundies has taken issue with me in another thread because I mentioned that Jesus lied a couple times. He doesn't seem to be aware of these instances in the Bible, so instead of allowing him to hijack that thread with more name calling, I'll post references to those lies here in the non-believer safe space so as not to upset any more of the true believers.

Ex. 1 - In John 7 Jesus says to his brothers that he is not going to go to a feast with them but after they leave he goes in secret.

"Go up to the feast yourselves; I do not go up to this feast because My time has not yet fully come.” Having said these things to them, He stayed in Galilee. But when His brothers had gone up to the feast, then He Himself also went up, not publicly, but as if, in secret."

Ex. 2 - In Matt 12:40 Jesus speaks of his death and resurrection and claims that he will be in the earth three days and three nights.

"For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

But he was crucified Friday night and was seen walking around Sunday morning, less than 48 hours later.

Ex. 3 - In Matt 16:28 Jesus says that some of the people he's speaking to will not die before he returns for them.

“Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

Obviously they're all dead now.

Okay that's one more than a couple.

Not a big deal if you're not a fundamentalist. Apparently huge if you are.

FmrMarine · 07-03-2012, 05:04 PM

More than that, Jesus said throughout the New Testament that god will answer prayer he will not. Jesus said that with the faith of a mustard seed one could move a mountain. You could have the faith of a fully formed lima bean and flip a coin 50 times and get it to come up heads every time no matter how hard you pray. You will never heal a person of Down's Syndrome by praying. You will never heal an amputee by praying. Ever. Despite the fact that Jesus said over and over, unambiguously I might add, that god will answer prayer.

~~Zadig~~ · 07-03-2012, 05:06 PM

Uh-oh. Don's going to be really upset with you. Apparently we're not allowed to reference the Bible unless we engage in approved apologetics.

**myotch** · 07-03-2012, 05:52 PM

"My time has not yet come"

In what way did Jesus' relatives suggest that Jesus go to the feast of booths? They were goading Him, because they didn't believe Him (7:5). They were teasing him into going to the Feast and declaring openly why He came. I don't see the lie here - He says "My time has not yet fully come."

Interesting word play in John 7. Coming off the Bread of Life discourse in John 6, Jesus will not go to the "feast" because His time "has not yet fully come". Jesus was a hunted man at this point. His relatives and disciples were known. Plausible deniability.

Three Days and Three Nights - Do you understand Jewish idioms?

"Three Days and Three Nights" is a Jewish idiom, and includes partial days. There's references to this in the Old (Esther 4:16-5:1) and New Testaments (obviously in the references to the resurrection), and was further explained by an ancient Jewish culture commentator Rabbi Eleazar ben Azariah of the time explained Jewish time-keeping.

Quote:A day and night are an Onah (`a portion of time') and the portion of an Onah is as the whole of it.

Notice that Luke omits the "three days and three nights" idiom. The writer of Luke (and Acts) was a Gentile, and wrote for a Gentile audience.

"death"

Why do you suppose that Jesus says they won't die until He comes back for them? Could "the Son of Man coming in His kingdom" possibly mean something else, perhaps the establishment of the Church?

~~Zadig~~ · (This post was last modified: 07-03-2012 07:01 PM by Zadig.)

(07-03-2012 05:52 PM)myotch Wrote: "My time has not yet come"

In what way did Jesus' relatives suggest that Jesus go to the feast of booths? They were goading Him, because they didn't believe Him (7:5). They were teasing him into going to the Feast and declaring openly why He came. I don't see the lie here - He says "My time has not yet fully come."

Interesting word play in John 7. Coming off the Bread of Life discourse in John 6, Jesus will not go to the "feast" because His time "has not yet fully come". Jesus was a hunted man at this point. His relatives and disciples were known. Plausible deniability.

So you don't think it's a lie for him to say he was not going to go, but then after they left, he does go? Okay.

Quote:Three Days and Three Nights - Do you understand Jewish idioms?

"Three Days and Three Nights" is a Jewish idiom, and includes partial days. There's references to this in the Old (Esther 4:16-5:1) and New Testaments (obviously in the references to the resurrection), and was further explained by an ancient Jewish culture commentator Rabbi Eleazar ben Azariah of the time explained Jewish time-keeping.

You do love the cliche apologetics. There is no evidence that this was an idiom. I always get a kick of this one. Almost as funny as the people who claim Good Friday was really a Thursday.

Quote:"death"

Why do you suppose that Jesus says they won't die until He comes back for them? Could "the Son of Man coming in His kingdom" possibly mean something else, perhaps the establishment of the Church?

In the apologetic world, words can mean whatever you want them to mean. 3 can even equal 2.

Wonder if I have any Orville Redenbacher in the pantry?

dramaturge · 07-03-2012, 09:23 PM

Not all Christians believe Jesus was crucified on Friday. There is a strong case for a Wednesday crucifixion. So there's that.

~~Zadig~~ · 07-03-2012, 09:26 PM

Wednesday night, Thursday night, Friday night, Saturday night? Sounds like someone is just hoping for a longer spring break.

dramaturge · 07-03-2012, 09:51 PM

My point is that there are factions who do not believe in a Friday crucifixion, some of whom believe the resurrection occurred before Sunday morning, some who believe in a Wednesday night trial and a Thursday crucifixion, some who believe in a Wednesday crucifixion. Friday is merely traditional, not actually stated in the Bible. So in this instance, perhaps rather than being some addition to your list, the problem is human traditions and vague scripture.

phil · (This post was last modified: 07-03-2012 11:36 PM by phil.)

(07-03-2012 06:58 PM)Zadig Wrote: [quote='myotch' pid='105277' dateline='1341355974']
"My time has not yet come"

In what way did Jesus' relatives suggest that Jesus go to the feast of booths? They were goading Him, because they didn't believe Him (7:5). They were teasing him into going to the Feast and declaring openly why He came. I don't see the lie here - He says "My time has not yet fully come."

[quote]Three Days and Three Nights - Do you understand Jewish idioms?

"Three Days and Three Nights" is a Jewish idiom, and includes partial days. There's references to this in the Old (Esther 4:16-5:1) and New Testaments (obviously in the references to the resurrection), and was further explained by an ancient Jewish culture commentator Rabbi Eleazar ben Azariah of the time explained Jewish time-keeping.

Zadig: You do love the cliche apologetics. There is no evidence that this was an idiom. I always get a kick of this one. Almost as funny as the people who claim Good Friday was really a Thursday.

Me :Concerning this quibble over whether or not the phrase is an idiom what exactly counts as evidence as to whether or not it its or isn't?

**myotch** · (This post was last modified: 07-04-2012 06:17 AM by myotch.)

Z. can't or won't consider the evidence.

The Esther passage has the same superficial time inconsistency, and Rabbi Eleazor ben Azariah explains the idiom AS an idiom.

Scripture in both the OT and NT is replete with multiples of "a day and a night". "Forty days and forty nights" appears in the Noah story and Jesus' time in the wilderness.