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Tooktheredpill · (This post was last modified: 02-10-2011 10:43 PM by Tooktheredpill.)

Quote:When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

What do you make of this verse?

I know the dispensational interpretation (that the passage is referring to the tribulation), but I don't buy it since Jesus was obviously addressing the disciples.

I'm not sure how partial preterists would interpret this?

Tooktheredpill · (This post was last modified: 02-10-2011 11:38 PM by Tooktheredpill.)

(02-10-2011 11:13 PM)Donb123 Wrote:
(02-10-2011 10:09 PM)Tooktheredpill Wrote: What do you make of this verse?

I know the dispensational interpretation (that the passage is referring to the tribulation), but I don't buy it since Jesus was obviously addressing the disciples.

I'm not sure how partial preterists would interpret this?

The "coming of the son of man" is indicative of Christ's judgement coming upon Israel which transpired in 70 AD.

A quick Google turned up this - http://www.christiancourier.com/articles...thew-10-23

Isn't that full-fledged preterism, though? I thought that partial preterists believed that, although much of the "end time" prophecy was fulfilled around AD 70, the coming of the son of man is still in the future?

Tooktheredpill · (This post was last modified: 02-11-2011 03:32 AM by Tooktheredpill.)

If that verse is referring to the destruction of Jerusalem that took in AD 70, why does Mark 13:23 state that the coming of the son of man is after the suffering of AD 70? The coming of the son of man seems to be a different event...?

Mark 13:23-27

Quote:But in those days, after that suffering,
the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light,
and the stars will be falling from heaven,
and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.
Then they will see ‘the Son of Man coming in clouds’ with great power and glory.
Then he will send out the angels, and gather his elect from the four winds,
from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.

elfdream · 02-11-2011, 09:02 AM

(02-11-2011 03:30 AM)Tooktheredpill Wrote: If that verse is referring to the destruction of Jerusalem that took in AD 70, why does Mark 13:23 state that the coming of the son of man is after the suffering of AD 70? The coming of the son of man seems to be a different event...?

Mark 13:23-27

Quote:But in those days, after that suffering,
the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light,
and the stars will be falling from heaven,
and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.
Then they will see ‘the Son of Man coming in clouds’ with great power and glory.
Then he will send out the angels, and gather his elect from the four winds,
from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.

I'm going to reply with something that is extremely controversial and I have no opinion of it at the moment but if you read the book of Josephus that tells in detail about the events of 70 AD there is one passage that speaks of people seeing chariots and troops of soldiers were seen running among the clouds. Josephus, who was not a Christian, does not know what to make of it saying that the events were hard to believe but only records it because he believed the eyewitnesses to be credible. This is according to some preterists the second coming, to partial preterists it is the judgment of Jerusalem by Christ and his actual return is in the future.

Once again I personally have no opinion of this. Not my theory and I have no explanation for it.

I read a fascinating book on this called "Rapture' by David Currie that contrasts the events of 70 AD as written by Josephus with the passages in Matthew and the book of Revelation. Lot of interesting parallels.

And a warning..reading Josephus about the fall of Jerusalem is NOT for the faint of heart. It disturbed me for days after I read it.

Tooktheredpill · 02-11-2011, 01:16 PM

(02-11-2011 09:02 AM)elfdream Wrote:
(02-11-2011 03:30 AM)Tooktheredpill Wrote: If that verse is referring to the destruction of Jerusalem that took in AD 70, why does Mark 13:23 state that the coming of the son of man is after the suffering of AD 70? The coming of the son of man seems to be a different event...?

Mark 13:23-27

I'm going to reply with something that is extremely controversial and I have no opinion of it at the moment but if you read the book of Josephus that tells in detail about the events of 70 AD there is one passage that speaks of people seeing chariots and troops of soldiers were seen running among the clouds. Josephus, who was not a Christian, does not know what to make of it saying that the events were hard to believe but only records it because he believed the eyewitnesses to be credible. This is according to some preterists the second coming, to partial preterists it is the judgment of Jerusalem by Christ and his actual return is in the future.

Once again I personally have no opinion of this. Not my theory and I have no explanation for it.

I read a fascinating book on this called "Rapture' by David Currie that contrasts the events of 70 AD as written by Josephus with the passages in Matthew and the book of Revelation. Lot of interesting parallels.

And a warning..reading Josephus about the fall of Jerusalem is NOT for the faint of heart. It disturbed me for days after I read it.

Elfdream, thanks for that info about Josephus and Ad 70. Very interesting. Never heard about that before.

I still don't know how to reconcile the 2 passages I mentioned. One (matthew 10:23) says that the coming of the son of man would occur very shortly after the warning. The other (Mark 13:23) seems to be making a distinction between the coming of the son of man and the destruction of AD 70.

Also, although I understand that this is apocolyptic literature and there's lots of cosmic imagery, I find it a stretch to believe that things like "he will send out the angels, and gather his elect from the four winds" were fulfilled in AD 70.

elfdream · 02-11-2011, 01:28 PM

(02-11-2011 01:16 PM)Tooktheredpill Wrote:
(02-11-2011 09:02 AM)elfdream Wrote: I'm going to reply with something that is extremely controversial and I have no opinion of it at the moment but if you read the book of Josephus that tells in detail about the events of 70 AD there is one passage that speaks of people seeing chariots and troops of soldiers were seen running among the clouds. Josephus, who was not a Christian, does not know what to make of it saying that the events were hard to believe but only records it because he believed the eyewitnesses to be credible. This is according to some preterists the second coming, to partial preterists it is the judgment of Jerusalem by Christ and his actual return is in the future.

Once again I personally have no opinion of this. Not my theory and I have no explanation for it.

I read a fascinating book on this called "Rapture' by David Currie that contrasts the events of 70 AD as written by Josephus with the passages in Matthew and the book of Revelation. Lot of interesting parallels.

And a warning..reading Josephus about the fall of Jerusalem is NOT for the faint of heart. It disturbed me for days after I read it.

Elfdream, thanks for that info about Josephus and Ad 70. Very interesting. Never heard about that before.

I still don't know how to reconcile the 2 passages I mentioned. One (matthew 10:23) says that the coming of the son of man would occur very shortly after the warning. The other (Mark 13:23) seems to be making a distinction between the coming of the son of man and the destruction of AD 70.

Also, although I understand that this is apocolyptic literature and there's lots of cosmic imagery, I find it a stretch to believe that things like "he will send out the angels, and gather his elect from the four winds" were fulfilled in AD 70.

I hope a 'full' preterist comes in and explains this more fully

elfdream · (This post was last modified: 02-11-2011 03:41 PM by elfdream.)

(02-11-2011 03:30 PM)Donb123 Wrote:
(02-11-2011 01:28 PM)elfdream Wrote: I hope a 'full' preterist comes in and explains this more fully

Yikes. I don't. That's some crazy stuff right there. I read some comments by some full prets online a number of years ago and it's not good...

Crazy? In what way? I admit I don't know a lot about them. I've visited some websites but never got into it that deeply.

Smith · 02-11-2011, 03:53 PM

If the words mean what they say...the time elements would have to be normal time elements...a day is a day, an hour is an hour. etc. Its funny how the Fundies are "literal" until it comes to time elements then a passage like this turns into 2000+ years. Don nails it.....Having said that, Acts i.11 the KJV says*THIS SAME JESUS*will return...my NLT says "Jesus has been taken from you into heaven, but someday he will return from heaven *in the same way* you saw him go!" So, this indicates a physical return for the Church...this is what convinces me of Partial Preterism rather than becoming a Full Preterist.

Smith · 02-11-2011, 04:52 PM

A good source for Preterism: http://www.preteristarchive.com

Tooktheredpill · (This post was last modified: 02-11-2011 07:24 PM by Tooktheredpill.)

Thanks for the link, Smith.

I'm still hoping that someone can/will address these specific questions:

Quote:I still don't know how to reconcile the 2 passages I mentioned. One (matthew 10:23) says that the coming of the son of man would occur very shortly after the warning. The other (Mark 13:23) seems to be making a distinction between the coming of the son of man and the destruction of AD 70.

Also, although I understand that this is apocolyptic literature and there's lots of cosmic imagery, I find it a stretch to believe that things like "he will send out the angels, and gather his elect from the four winds" were fulfilled in AD 70.