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Don · 07-27-2012, 12:54 PM

Had to resurrect this regarding the things in heaven in relation to the Blood of Christ. John in his vision of the Revelation of Jesus Christ gave this description of Heaven and regarding a "Temple" in heaven:

And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

So according to John there is no temple, no holy-of-holies, so there is no need of blood in heaven for Christ is there having presented himself as the Sacrifice.

The things done here on earth are but a shadow or type, and not a requirement for how things must be done in heaven.

greg · 08-02-2012, 05:54 AM

Jesus said:

"You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life." John 5:39-40

There are folks that seriously study the scriptures, but will not accept Jesus. Why? Because they refuse to go to Him! Men refusing that's something that they "do".

Let's look on down at John 5:44

"How can you believe if you accept praise from one another, yet make no effort to obtain the praise that comes from the only God?"

"MAKING AN EFFORT" If someone tells me that is not something that man "does" then I simply don't know what to say. The entire bible is an invitation to men to come to the Savior. The entire reason Jesus came to Earth was to "seek and to save that which was lost."

Please come to Jesus today to receive life, make a "human" effort to come to obtain that Praise from God. Don't rely on men and "their" belief systems, believe Jesus, you can trust Him!

That'sWhatItSays · 08-02-2012, 10:45 AM

To be fair, Don, that is a description of a new city that descends down from heaven. It also says that there is a new heaven as well, so I don't know whether blood is around at the point, either. Not sure exactly how all of this wrapping up of history looks.

oneflewoutofthecuckcoosnest

I did not have the patience to read all of this thread so I am not sure if anyone has made this point or not, but many scholars believe that Hebrews reflects Platonic philosophical notions around shadows/copies on earth and their corresponding reallities. Also, using apocalyptic literature literally to decide if there is blood in heaven is a misuse of this type of writing imo.

phil · 08-11-2012, 10:11 PM

Are there any articles you could link that talk about Hebrews and Platonism?

Don · 08-12-2012, 01:37 PM

(08-11-2012 10:46 AM)oneflewoutofthecuckcoosnest Wrote: I did not have the patience to read all of this thread so I am not sure if anyone has made this point or not, but many scholars believe that Hebrews reflects Platonic philosophical notions around shadows/copies on earth and their corresponding reallities. Also, using apocalyptic literature literally to decide if there is blood in heaven is a misuse of this type of writing imo.

Yet the observation John makes ties back to the point we have been developiong in this thread that it is Christ, the "Better" sacrifice, who abides in heaven rather than the blood. John is telling of his observation that there is no need for a temple since Christ himself is there. (and yes I do understand that Revelation 11 talks of the temple in heaven)

And secondly I am arguing that the atoning work of Christ was finished on the cross and is not an on going work that has to be applied everytime someone (in time) is saved by grace.

oneflewoutofthecuckcoosnest · 08-12-2012, 03:14 PM

(08-11-2012 10:11 PM)phil Wrote: Are there any articles you could link that talk about Hebrews and Platonism?

Hi Phil,

Most of the material I am familiar with is copywrited and not available online. However, I did find this:

http://books.google.ca/books?id=jLFRTSRB...&q&f=false

Check out the introduction, esp pages 23-26 which are available.

Also, if you google: <middle platonism hebrews> you may find some stuff.

Hope this helps.

oneflewoutofthecuckcoosnest · 08-12-2012, 03:28 PM

(08-12-2012 01:37 PM)Don Wrote:
(08-11-2012 10:46 AM)oneflewoutofthecuckcoosnest Wrote: I did not have the patience to read all of this thread so I am not sure if anyone has made this point or not, but many scholars believe that Hebrews reflects Platonic philosophical notions around shadows/copies on earth and their corresponding reallities. Also, using apocalyptic literature literally to decide if there is blood in heaven is a misuse of this type of writing imo.

Yet the observation John makes ties back to the point we have been developiong in this thread that it is Christ, the "Better" sacrifice, who abides in heaven rather than the blood. John is telling of his observation that there is no need for a temple since Christ himself is there. (and yes I do understand that Revelation 11 talks of the temple in heaven)

And secondly I am arguing that the atoning work of Christ was finished on the cross and is not an on going work that has to be applied everytime someone (in time) is saved by grace.

Hi Don,

Sorry - I am not sure what your point is vis-a-vis my post. My point with respect to Revelation is that it is apocalyptic and should not be read literally. It is a book of symbolic visions, not visions of what literally exists. Just not clear as to what your "yet" is directed at.

phil · 08-12-2012, 11:10 PM

(08-12-2012 03:14 PM)oneflewoutofthecuckcoosnest Wrote:
(08-11-2012 10:11 PM)phil Wrote: Are there any articles you could link that talk about Hebrews and Platonism?

Hi Phil,

Most of the material I am familiar with is copywrited and not available online. However, I did find this:

http://books.google.ca/books?id=jLFRTSRB...&q&f=false

Check out the introduction, esp pages 23-26 which are available.

Also, if you google: <middle platonism hebrews> you may find some stuff.

Hope this helps.

I didn't use the middle before I asked you. I only used platonism hebrews or something like that. The most i got was general stuff and Jesus Mythicism articles. Thank I'll try and see if this works.

greg · (This post was last modified: 09-01-2012 12:13 PM by greg.)

XP- I see that you have expressed this idea regarding the blood of Christ a couple of times now. You posit the idea that the blood can't have certain/special attributes because then that would be controlling God. Do I have that right?

I believe/know that God is bound by His word. So if Almighty God says the "blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin" I believe Him! Does that pronouncement make God somehow less powerful because He has proclaimed this? Not at all, and I really can't figure why you would think so, God decreed many things, and yes, He is bound by His word, as He should be, if He were not, we couldn't trust Him!

You said "as a result God isn't affected by the blood." I would implore you to reconsider this notion.

"The blood will be a sign for you on the houses where you are; and when I see the blood, I will pass over you." Exodus 12:13 (God was obviously affected by the blood here, of course this was not the blood of Christ, but a shadow of it)

It is precisely the same way now. I often say Jesus is not coming back to planet Earth looking for Baptists, He is coming back looking for those that are covered by the blood.

The blood of Jesus is incorruptible, and is what has redeemed me "For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect." 1 Peter 1:18

I believe that real blood is necessary to wash away real sin, from real people who are really lost? "The Blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin" 1 John 1:7

"But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, the the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel." Hebrews 12:22-24..........Quite a scene here, we don't get many looks into heaven, but this is simply a miraculous peek into heaven, but notice two things. First the blood of Christ in Heaven! (the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word) Second, note that the blood "speaks a better word" Speaks is in the present tense! Abel's blood, you will recall, cried out to God for vengeance against Cain. But the blood of Christ speaks "a better word than the blood of Abel." The blood of Christ cries out for MERCY for those who have been redeemed by the blood. SPEAKS is in the present tense. The blood was SPEAKING in Paul's day when he wrote the book of Hebrews (I believe Paul is the author of Hebrews) and I believe the blood is still SPEAKING today! If Christ's blood is dried up in the sands of Israel, as some think, then would someone please explain to me how it is still speaking today?

I believe from the Scriptures that the blood of Christ still speaks! I believe it is ALIVE, I believe it is on the mercy seat right now as I type this, I believe the blood of Christ speaks a better than the blood of Abel. I believe that it is eternal, imperishable, incorruptible blood of Christ. It will not, indeed cannot dry up and go away!