Doctrine of the Trinity

[Ricardo]

Been called worse

But to be accurate, it could not be Atheism.

I can't help it! I believe in God! We have long chats at all times. (Pray without ceasing.) Sometimes we even use words!

It used to be that I considered "Unitarian" one of the worst insults. (Or at least a way of writing off and separating from a whole bunch of churches.)

Now, I'm not so sure. I will have to say, I have not found a Unitarian church service yet that makes me feel, when I come out, like I really got my money's worth. There is no depth that I can find.

Have you visited a synagogue? I highly recommend it! As usual, I pay so much attention to every single element of the service that in the end I feel like I get more out of it than most regular attenders, who go through the motions by rote. And I promise you, you will find much less to object to than in any run of the mill IFB church.

They do not mention Jesus, you say? We can point you to Sunday after Sunday in many an IFB church where Jesus is not really preached either.

No, I'm not really interested in converting to Judaism. Just pointing out that God is at the door knocking. All we have to do is open our hearts, no matter where we are.

Think for a moment in the case of someone coming in through Rom 1:19-20. He has found God. No reason to think he will use the term Yahweh or Jehovah, Abba, Lord of Lords, King of Kings or any other name used in a Scripture he has not read. Maybe he has come up with his own imperfect way of defining Him as a Quintet. Or maybe he just calls God "Hey You!" oh, wait a second! he would not know about Jesus either!

Rom1:19-20 would seem to contradict the exclusivity clause of John 14:6. Which of course was never true since we have case after case in the OT where many came to God without having a clue who Jesus was.

The need for a perfect, sinless Jesus fits in with the whole concept of an unblemished lamb. Today the idea that god would be checking out the eyes, teeth, ears and coat of the lamb, discarding the sacrifice if the lamb was 11 months and three weeks...

I have read some pretty creative essays about why Jesus, who was God, would scream out "Why have you abandoned me" on the cross. People trying to jump through hoops to try to explain why Jesus didn't really mean what it so plainly says.

Granted, discussing Jesus as part of the Trinity is a way harder subject than trying to figure out why we need a God the Father AND a God the Holy Ghost. When God led the Jews in the desert as a column of smoke or fire, which one was that? Who walked through the Garden with Adam?

I have to take with a grain of salt those images of Jesus sitting on the right hand of God, who is sitting on a throne, looking "down" on Earth.

[myotch]

Oooh! Didn't mean to be insulting by any means. I forget I "read" gruff, when a lot of the time I have a smile on my face and much gentler purposes.

[Ricardo]

Not me. No offense taken.

If I actually knew what I was talking about, or had any confidence in the harebrained ideas I come up with, then it would be another story.

[Michelle M]

Ricardo, I have to say I'm feeling everything you've said here. I'm starting to wonder if I'm still considered a Christian. All I know is that the theology that I grew up with does not answer the questions that you raise, and a theology that can't answer simple questions is no theology at all.

[Ricardo]

(06-16-2012 01:06 AM)myotch Wrote:  At what point are you worshipping a different God than the one presented?

This, my friend, is the reason so many of us stayed in our IFB church way, way longer than we should have. So many of us were made to believe that there was no other way to God but through the rants of this particular Man of Gawd. We truly believed if we left that specific church we would lose our Salvation. And the bible clearly says apostates will not be forgiven…

So, first answer: I have already started “worshiping a different God than the one presented.” In fact, several times.

Then we started reading the bibles differently. In some cases even before leaving. I have already presented a handful of the many cases where the God I worship now is different from the God I was presented through Scripture. That most definitely constituted a second crisis of Faith: What happens when my God doesn’t match the god portrayed in some passages of a book that is supposed to be the “Inerrant Word of God?” I have already mentioned it: if it is a choice between my experience of God and the horrible view of god in the bible, then the choice is easy: Drop the inerrancy notion.

So, yes, I most definitely am “worshipping a different God than the one presented.”

The story of Jacob’s WWF’s bout with God is such a great story! It reflects my sentiments so much. That’s me not letting go of some of these horrible passages in Scripture until God blesses me.

I ask myself constantly: Is it me changing or is it God changing? How can it be possible that the God I worship is the same God who wants an altar built of unhewn stone one day (Quaker) and a richly appointed tabernacle the next day (Catholic?)

Clearly, God is the same, yesterday, today and tomorrow.

It is our understanding of God that continues to change. An invading hoard clearly needed a General of the Armies to be their God. Plus a “Promised Land” Myth to justify such an invasion. Then the definition changed to King of Kings. Different God for different circumstances. Later on we got the concept of an Abba God, Even later, we have tried to combine all these definitions somehow, with God as a Trinity.

I repeat: It is not God that changes. It is our own definition, our own need, our own understanding that has been changing constantly.

I’m at a point right now where I can worship God in just about any church I visit, or even in no church at all. Where I can read any version of the Bible, or no Bible at all.

Have I taken a lot of wrong turns? Absolutely! Is this path I’m on one of those dead ends? Only time will tell. But let me tell you, my relationship with God has never been better!

Stick around! A lot of Joy here!

[greg]

How about some of the word of God, from Ephesians 4:11-16

"It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of
God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ."

"Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work."

[Ricardo]

Thank you Greg. I try to live up to the gifts I've been given by God. One of my divinity school teachers described me as "iconoclast," reminding me that that was one of the major roles of a prophet.

We do have so many winds of teachings we have been delivered from, so much cunning and craftiness of men in deceitful scheming. but sometimes simply leaving our IFB churches is not enough.

Fortunately NOTHING can separate us from God's love!