Can You Still Be Considered a Christian and Not be supportive of Israel?

[JimE]

(02-09-2011 11:43 PM)chris1000bc Wrote:  

(02-09-2011 05:03 PM)JimE Wrote:  ...
God disciplined Israel numerous times. The countries used by God to punish Israel were doing God's will.
...
I am doing God's will for my life.

I agree that in a sense those countries were doing God's will, but God still punished them for their pride and evil motives. I am not sure what you are saying exactly, but surely you do not mean that you are doing God's will in the same sense that they were?


To answer the main question: sure.

I do not know if I am doing God's will in the same sense that they were.
I guess that I do not understand your question.

I have a general lack of interest in politics or political activity of any scope or nature.

[chris1000bc]

(02-14-2011 05:26 PM)JimE Wrote:  I do not know if I am doing God's will in the same sense that they were.
I guess that I do not understand your question.

I have a general lack of interest in politics or political activity of any scope or nature.

Well, I may have been unclear. Sorry for that. I will try to do better, but I make no promises.

If I understood you correctly, you were saying that nations rose up against Israel, and at times in doing so they were being used by God to judge Israel. So these nations were in a sense doing the will of God - punishing the nation of Israel. But these nations did not know they were doing God's will, and they only had evil motives for their own power or prestige. So, I think you meant something like this, and then later on in your post you say that you are doing God's will for your life.

I was wondering if you meant you were doing God's will for your life in the same sense that these nations previously mentioned were doing God's will for their life. I guess in a sense we are all doing God's will in this sense, and would not know how exactly or when exactly we were doing God's will in this sense.

Again, I do not intend to be unclear, but maybe it's my spiritual gift.

[JimE]

(02-14-2011 05:49 PM)chris1000bc Wrote:  

(02-14-2011 05:26 PM)JimE Wrote:  I guess that I do not understand your question.

Well, I may have been unclear. Sorry for that. I will try to do better, but I make no promises.
... ...

K, I think I understand the scope of the question.

I have no direct mandate from God about Israel. I think about Israel about 1 minute per week and this year's allotment is used up.

I proceed through life trusting God. I memorized many verses when young and still listen to the Bible on CD every week, and think about God often. I try to avoid evil actions and thoughts in my own life when I can detect it. From this perspective, my lack of unconditional support for Israel is not evil, it is prudent. I trust God to influence my thoughts and behavior.

But I have to be honest and consider the question: Does the motive for an action change the results of that action? If I accidentally or purposely kill person B. Person B is dead. The affect on Person B is identical. The legal response would be different but Person B is dead.

God uses people/nations to do his will regardless of their spiritual orientation to do his will. People/nations cannot stop this from happening. I cannot tell whether my position is right or wrong, good or evil. All I know is that I am trusting God, I am doing God's will for me.

I do not know if those who God used to punish Israel had the same thoughts.

[Smith]

(02-14-2011 04:55 PM)JimE Wrote:  

(02-09-2011 06:27 PM)Smith Wrote:  Jim,
I didn't ask God, I asked those who use this board. Also, I have to point out that you are assuming that the Israel of today is the Israel of Abraham...it's not. As a matter of fact, God sorta bitch-slapped Israel in 70 A.D. and Israel's never recovered. As a matter of fact, if your unconditional support of Israel is consistent with your faith, you might do well to examine your faith...modern/political Israel pulled their present day land out from under the Palestinian's feet and are in the process of running perhaps the biggest ghetto on the planet...the Gaza Strip. Search Youtube...you will see Israelie tanks running over children, people being shot "just because" and the entire population being starved out of existence because the Israeli government believes the Palestinian population is "Moab". Is starving out other Christians consistent with your Christian faith? Kinda puts you and those like you in a conundrum: "obey" the Scriptures by "blessing" Israel while at the same time disobeying the Scritpure by not supporting a Palestinian Christian. What is it about Evangelicalism that is comfortable with cognitive dissonance? How can you support an atheistic country who's only interest in Fundamentalist/Evangelical Christians is that of an enabler? The only passage you can pull out of your bible is "I will bless those who bless thee and curse those who curse thee"....the problem is, "thee" is Abraham, not the bunch who migrated from Central Europe. Lastly, how do deal with splitting your worship between Israel/Jews and God? You may want to revisit Romans 4 for the proper definition of a Jew.

I suspect that you have a passion about this issue. Good.
Please carefully re-read what I wrote. I think that there has been a misunderstanding.

Jim,
Sorry about going a little over the top there....it's a problem of mine. Yes, I'm very passionate about this issue because this issue is the context many understand Christianity through and I fear those who have been duped by this are living their Christian lives either deceived and spinning their wheels in the mud promoting an agenda that has absolutly NOTHING to do with their life in Christ. As a matter of fact, if you closely examine 1Cor-Phil you will notice that:
1. There is no more Jew and Greek in Christ....Just the Church--the middle wall separating Jew and Gentile was broken down making the 'new man' (ie., the Church) . We Gentiles who previously had "no hope without God in the world" have now been drawn close.
2. Paul's emphasis is BEING in Christ...not politics, not corporate and national racism. Actually, the systematic genocide happening in the Gaza Strip against the Palestinian Christians should be treated by the Church as the Church in Jerusalem was in Paul's day: prayers and relief..food, medicine and fellowship. However, this won't happen because for reasons of a disoriented viewpoint, atheistic Jews are counted more worthy of prayers, food, medicine and WEAPONS than simply providing the essentials for survival for our brethren within the Gaza ghetto. It's beyond the pale of 'sad', it's sickening and just one of the MANY reasons God will judge our nation.

Bend over America, God is getting ready to shove the 'big boot' up our collective rear-ends.

[JimE]

(02-15-2011 09:03 AM)Smith Wrote:  Jim,
Sorry about going a little over the top there....it's a problem of mine. Yes, I'm very passionate about this issue because this issue is the context many understand Christianity through and I fear those who have been duped by this are living their Christian lives either deceived and spinning their wheels in the mud promoting an agenda that has absolutly NOTHING to do with their life in Christ.
...
...

Smith,
I did not perceive the need to apologize. I don't think that being passionate about an issue is sin.
I always enjoy reading your posts. God has given you a gift of communication. I too have noted these concerns. Being an ex-fundy, I tend to think I was duped and distracted in my fundy days. What guarantee do I have today that this is not happening now? Am I being duped again? (fun song: "Won't Get Fooled Again", The Who) Am I deceived and spinning my wheels in the mud promoting an agenda that has absolutly NOTHING to do with my life in Christ?

I think it is sometimes wise to slow down and consider these questions.
Thanks for posting.

[Blessedarethey]

K so I gre up ifb but can some one tell me what dispensationalism is? I know this does not relate to the question but I keep seeing it repeated

[Lizzy F.]

(02-16-2011 12:02 AM)Blessedarethey Wrote:  K so I gre up ifb but can some one tell me what dispensationalism is? I know this does not relate to the question but I keep seeing it repeated

This is an explanation written by ExIFB.

Quote:Dispensationalism takes a literal approach to scripture, separating the Church and Israel, identifying the prophetic program for Israel and the mystery program for the Church, which was hidden from the OT saints, although prophesied about. But, more importantly, it focuses on our identification in Jesus Christ, as gentiles, with no relation to the Law of Moses, by pure Grace of God. To me it clarifies and helps "solve" a ton of apparent contradictions in scripture regarding prophecy about the law reigning, when Paul says we are free from the law. And so we have this distinction between a prophetic program for Israel, and the Millennial Kingdom, and the mystery program for the Church, comprised of both Jews and Gentiles. And Romans 9 & 10, I believe, deal with the setting aside of one nation (Israel), to have mercy on the Gentiles, but eventually, the Gentiles will be set aside, and God will deal with Israel again (ie, there are not two "plans of salvation" today, one for Jews, one for Gentiles, which is a common complaint I hear against dispensationalism).

The thread where I snagged this from is HERE. ExIFB wrote some good posts and the whole thread hightlights the "rapture focus" that dominates American fundy dispensationalism.