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**Mommy2Kids** · 05-30-2012, 04:28 PM

Sadly, "facts" can be manufactured. I choose, by faith, to believe Scripture when there is a discrepancy between the two.

B-Ray · 05-30-2012, 04:55 PM

(05-30-2012 04:28 PM)Mommy2Kids Wrote: Sadly, "facts" can be manufactured. I choose, by faith, to believe Scripture when there is a discrepancy between the two.

this is me, that is what i meant my i believe the book regardless of what somebody says is facts. i admit it would be foolish to believe something that obviously is not a fact

**redbeardiam** · 05-30-2012, 05:09 PM

(05-30-2012 04:24 PM)FmrMarine Wrote: I think the point of contention might be the sentiment that "I will believe what I choose regardless of facts." Read that statement again and think about it for a minute.

That is a sentiment I do not share.

For instance, I was raised believing in a literal 7-day young earth creationism. And my change of mind in regard to the evidence for evolution was a major force behind the change in the way I understand the first chapters of Genesis.

elizabethn · 05-30-2012, 07:30 PM

Quote:Sometimes, but not at the moment.

Your tone is condescending, as though if everyone who disagrees with you was simply more enlightened, they would see it your way.

Nowhere in my tone is any such implication...unless you choose to read it that way.

Quote:You cuss at one poster (although I'm still not sure he's a real person), take unneeded offense to another and call yet another ignorant.

Yes, I cussed at him. On purpose, with intent to communicate, in words, that I spit on the ground at men whom I perceive to be misogynist bastards. I do trust THAT was a clear communication.

"Unneeded offense" is your opinion and you have a right to it. I disagree. Well, I can't really agree or disagree with "unneeded," since that implies that there is such a thing as "needed" offense. I had a feeling and I expressed that feeling. I am not going to indulge the idea that feelings might be "needed" or "unneeded."

Ah, that word "ignorant" again. Back to trusty dictionary.com:

"1. lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned: an ignorant man.
2. lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact: ignorant of quantum physics.
3. uninformed; unaware.
4. due to or showing lack of knowledge or training: an ignorant statement."

I have said, repeatedly, that ignorance is a temporary and fixable condition. Will you now kindly show me where I ever insulted anyone with that word? Or where I made any assumptions that the remedying of ignorance would automatically result in agreeing with me?

Quote:What's to overgeneralize?

To say that I do abc to "everyone" is an overgeneralization.

I am now deliberately refraining from voicing any assumptions about what you have posted to me, although I could make quite a few by now. I am attempting to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that the tone behind your posts is conversational and not attempting to berate. And I am tamping down the reaction to a lot of triggering statements you have made in doing so.

Let me be more clear (I hope): My tone in this post is intended to be deliberately flat. Do please be so charitable and do me the favor of reading it that way, instead of making assumptions.

elizabethn · (This post was last modified: 05-30-2012 07:49 PM by elizabethn.)

(05-30-2012 04:24 PM)FmrMarine Wrote: I think the point of contention might be the sentiment that "I will believe what I choose regardless of facts." Read that statement again and think about it for a minute.

That's not *my* point of contention, at least not about matters of faith and spirituality. I'm trying to say that in my opinion , spiritual truths are terribly ill-served by trying to express them as or make them conform to the current concepts/definitions of "facts."

I say again: "Truth" and "fact" are not synonymous. "Fact" is much too narrow a word to compare with "truth."

The example of two bodies of light (Gen. 1) is a simple example of this concept. It appears that most readers have no trouble with that example.

I would very much like to have a conversation about this topic, but I'm getting tired of being accused of being wordy. There appears to be an unwritten rule here that theology conversations must be conducted in single sentence posts, and that to attempt to do otherwise is being condescending.

**Mommy2Kids** · 05-30-2012, 08:09 PM

Kids are eating Subway. I get to "eat" an Atkins shake. Sure could go for a huge TACO.

Ricardo · 05-30-2012, 08:46 PM

(05-30-2012 04:28 PM)Mommy2Kids Wrote: Sadly, "facts" can be manufactured. I choose, by faith, to believe Scripture when there is a discrepancy between the two.

The problem is that Scripture is also manufactured.

Does your bible have the doxology ending to the Lord's Prayer? This is not minor. We are talking about what Jesus actually said.

It is possible to believe in Jesus, even if we are not sure what he said, or in what order. (An issue most literalists totally ignore.) It is possible to try to love God and try to love our neighbor even if we are not sure about when the story of Jesus and the sinner woman at the well was added to John.

"Authority" is a power trip by men who want to control the message, who want to make sure that God only speaks to us THROUGH them.

Guess what? God speaks to me in spite of all efforts by the diverse churches to control how She speaks to me. In spite of all the efforts to suppress the many writings by early Christians that do not agree with the party line, the "orthodox" line.

I'm sure we all agree that it is not the bible that saves. And yet, we all get hung up (me too,) on what the bible says or doesn't say.

Fortunately, God speaks to us IN SPITE OF THE BIBLES. In spite of whatever my opinion of the day is about all the silly doctrines we construct to try to systematize god.

elizabethn · 05-30-2012, 10:13 PM

(05-30-2012 08:46 PM)Ricardo Wrote: Fortunately, God speaks to us IN SPITE OF THE BIBLES. In spite of whatever my opinion of the day is about all the silly doctrines we construct to try to systematize god.

^^^^This.

bean · 05-31-2012, 06:34 AM

What I have an issue with, and again, this is just my opinion...is the fact that fundies start with the verse about "all scripture inspired by God" (2 Tim. 3:16). then go on to use this verse to pick and choose.

The Bible, as written, is beautiful. It tells the rich history of God's people and also the story of God's love. It also contains many things that were social constructions of men in the first century. Things like arranged marriage, slavery, execution by stoning, and the fact that the world was flat to them. Considered in context, it is amazing document and we can hear God speak if we listen.

**Mominator** · (This post was last modified: 05-31-2012 07:41 AM by Mominator.)

(05-20-2012 12:14 PM)captain_solo Wrote: Its all kool aid at some point.

You probably should just start with reading the Bible. That corrected many a flaw in my thinking. (BTW, thats what its for...)
Just the stuff that is obvious and easy to understand will be pretty mind bending if you have been immersed in fundamentalism as it exists today for any length of time

Those are wise words and that's what my husband and I did when we left the IFB is just immerse ourselves in Scripture. We do have Matthew Henry's Commentary for a reference guide and my hubby likes E-sword if you want to look at the Greek and Hebrew translation.