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squiz · 05-16-2012, 12:02 PM

(05-06-2012 10:24 AM)Naomi Wrote:
(05-06-2012 10:18 AM)Hollandmichigan Wrote: mine at the moment happens to be calling out bullshit when i see it.

I think you mean making uncalled for personal attacks on people who happens to believe differently than you. I hate it when people do that and then identify as non-religious. Feel like it reflects poorly on anyone who doesn't believe.

Which personal attack, are you talking about Naomi? This one?

(05-04-2012 10:29 AM)Hollandmichigan Wrote:
(05-04-2012 10:12 AM)Ricardo Wrote: Part of the issue here is changing the way we read Scripture.
if what is written is bullshit then it aint going to matter which way you read the damn thing

What is personal about that? HM is only referring to the contents of the so-called "scripture" and not personally attacking Ricardo or even what he said.

(05-06-2012 01:21 PM)Naomi Wrote: the way you're giving your opinions is insulting and rude.

Come on. This is supposed to be a non-believer's forum here. Surely it is safe to call the contents of the "scriptures" bullshit here?

It is an interesting idea of Darrell's to give believers and non-believers their respective safe-houses. Personally I don't see the need for the non-believers safe-house, although I suppose it can be annoying for both sides to be spammed by preaching types of the opposite side. Ricardo seems to be a nice guy and is making a big effort to find his way, but he still comes across as a bibliolatrous believer when he calls the bible "Scripture". I for one don't consider the bible to be "Scripture" and don't consider it to be particularly great literature or even to be a great source of moral teachings, so alarm bells ring when I read such words. I don't mind though, when Ricardo comes on with his beliefs, although I wish he would try to be a bit more coherent.

**Naomi** · 05-16-2012, 12:14 PM

(05-16-2012 12:02 PM)squiz Wrote: This one?

No. I don't have a problem with someone calling a text bullshit. I have a problem with calling people names, and ridiculing them for not believing the same thing as you. Everything I wanted to say I have already said, though.

Ricardo · 05-16-2012, 01:41 PM

(05-16-2012 12:02 PM)squiz Wrote: I don't mind though, when Ricardo comes on with his beliefs, although I wish he would try to be a bit more coherent.

Hey! If I had it all figured out, I wouldn't have to come to SFL and think out-loud. (And have people scream at me for it.)

Here is where i come to try out all the crazy ideas I come up with. My wife, who is daughter of a minister has no interest whatsoever in listening to my rants. The people I know around here are too polite to disagree with me.

So, my best option, still is to come here! Where else can I receive the benefit of "in-your-face" reactions from Greg and Donb123, plus the wisdom of OneFlew and Pastor's Wife, Darrell and the rest of you?

I have to remind myself constantly that I do not have THE TRUTH ™. Neither do you.

Together, (And with God's help, Wink

) maybe we can figure some of these things out.

Ricardo · 05-16-2012, 01:49 PM

(05-16-2012 12:02 PM)squiz Wrote: Ricardo seems to be a nice guy and is making a big effort to find his way, but he still comes across as a bibliolatrous believer when he calls the bible "Scripture"

Not sure what your baggage with the word "Scripture" is all about. I just reread my thread on "Scripture" yesterday and am amazed how so much of what was written a mere year and a half ago by me and others, no longer seem to be issues I care about. http://www.stufffundieslike.com/forum/sh...p?tid=2806

I contoinue to have a love-hate relationship with the bibles.

squiz · 05-23-2012, 03:43 AM

(05-16-2012 12:14 PM)Naomi Wrote:
(05-16-2012 12:02 PM)squiz Wrote: This one?

No. I don't have a problem with someone calling a text bullshit. I have a problem with calling people names, and ridiculing them for not believing the same thing as you. Everything I wanted to say I have already said, though.

I didn't see him call anyone names, but as the thread is long I'll just have to take your word for it that he did this. A direct quote of the post in question might prevent such confusion though, because all I could find (last time I looked) was the post using "rude words" about the text.

squiz · 05-23-2012, 04:01 AM

(05-16-2012 01:49 PM)Ricardo Wrote:
(05-16-2012 12:02 PM)squiz Wrote: Ricardo seems to be a nice guy and is making a big effort to find his way, but he still comes across as a bibliolatrous believer when he calls the bible "Scripture"

Not sure what your baggage with the word "Scripture" is all about. I just reread my thread on "Scripture" yesterday and am amazed how so much of what was written a mere year and a half ago by me and others, no longer seem to be issues I care about. http://www.stufffundieslike.com/forum/sh...p?tid=2806

I contoinue to have a love-hate relationship with the bibles.

I don't think I carry any baggage as such. I object to the use of the word scripture, when talking about these texts, because the word attributes some degree of supernatural authority to the texts which I don't believe they in any way hold. I actually believe that this totally unjustified belief in the authority of "scriptures" (Muslim or Christian) is the root cause of many of the problems in the world today.

Ricardo · 05-23-2012, 08:34 AM

(05-23-2012 04:01 AM)squiz Wrote: I object to the use of the word scripture, when talking about these texts, because the word attributes some degree of supernatural authority to the texts which I don't believe they in any way hold.

Fair enough. It is hard enough to express our beliefs. Even harder when we do not seem to define concepts the same way. We see it all the time in polls. One word or two will affect the result of the poll. If you ask: "Should the right to choose who you can marry be regulated by the state?" you will get VERY different results than if you ask "Should queers be allowed to marry?"

(05-23-2012 04:01 AM)squiz Wrote: I actually believe that this totally unjustified belief in the authority of "scriptures" (Muslim or Christian) is the root cause of many of the problems in the world today.

Spoken like a true Fundamentalist. (even as a Recovering Fundamentalist.) IFBs as well as Sunni Fundamentalists, as well as Orthodox Jews give overwhelming authority to their Holy Books.

Catholics, Shiite Muslims and others give more authority to their traditions and to their leaders.

Some of us Christians are trying to give authority to our personal relationship with God.

I'm a bit hesitant to name a "root cause" to the world's problems.

As to solutions, here is a good beginning:
http://www.peace.ca/kindergarten.htm

squiz · 05-23-2012, 09:56 AM

(05-23-2012 08:34 AM)Ricardo Wrote:
(05-23-2012 04:01 AM)squiz Wrote: I actually believe that this totally unjustified belief in the authority of "scriptures" (Muslim or Christian) is the root cause of many of the problems in the world today.

Spoken like a true Fundamentalist. (even as a Recovering Fundamentalist.) IFBs as well as Sunni Fundamentalists, as well as Orthodox Jews give overwhelming authority to their Holy Books.

Catholics, Shiite Muslims and others give more authority to their traditions and to their leaders.

Some of us Christians are trying to give authority to our personal relationship with God.

I'm a bit hesitant to name a "root cause" to the world's problems.

As to solutions, here is a good beginning:
http://www.peace.ca/kindergarten.htm

Why do you call me a Fundamentalist? Because I used the word "belief", or because those beliefs contradict yours? I believe it in that I think that it is probably true. This is not a fundamentalist style belief in that it is based on observations and not on authority. It is not an absolute belief, in that I am quite ready to modify it if given enough reason. I also recognise that religious belief can do some good in the world, although the jury is still out in my mind as to whether the bad outweighs the good. So how does this make me a fundamentalist?

This all reminds me of astrology believers who ask me what my star sign is and then try to analyse my personality based on that. When I try to politely say that I'm sorry but I don't believe in astrology, they sometimes get aggressive and accuse me of being arrogant. So it's ok to shove your beliefs down someone's throat - that is open minded, but it is closed-minded and arrogant (or fundamentalist) to express disbelief?

Anyway I didn't say that giving authority to holy books causes all the problems in the world, but just that it causes many. Giving authority to traditions and leaders is in many ways worse (or at least it amounts to the same thing). Anyway, your examples just proved my point - they are all examples of belief systems that have caused much human suffering due to their absolutist adherence to authority, whether scriptural, human, or divine.

Regarding your "personal relationship with God", please forgive me if I am a bit sceptical. Does he answer back, or do you have to deduce what he wants to tell you from various things that happen in your life?

Anyway, regarding giving authority to personal revelation, I suggest taking this non-authoritative (but in this case perhaps wise) advice:
"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."

Ricardo · (This post was last modified: 05-23-2012 02:14 PM by Ricardo.)

Chill!

I'm not calling you anything.

When someone speaks in categorical statements, it reminds me of Fundamentalists.

"Regarding your "personal relationship with God", please forgive me if I am a bit sceptical."

No problem. The Buddha said "don't believe anything I say. Check it out for yourself. Paul said Check everything out, keep the good stuff!