Christian-phobic speaker walked out on by student journalists

[greg]

Dan Savage is a vile homosexual pervert, why would anyone expect something different from him?

[myotch]

Shush-it, you. As a Christian, you should know that Christ died for him as much as He died for you.

We are all vile.

[Hollandmichigan]

[quote='myotch' pid='89507' dateline='1336059327']
[quote='Hollandmichigan' pid='89481' dateline='1336052107']

"OK, he's educated. He helps people. He's been recognized by POTUS for some extraordinary work... The guy has a character problem..."--oh, ok, this person has only been vouched for by all these extraordinary people in our society, yet you still question his character to the point where you think he should be hidden from the innocent eyes and ears of the nation's youth. Maybe you put such a low value on a college education and the opinion of the President but i do not. I really get the feeling that whats going on here is that you think he's unacceptable because he, as a married gay man and an atheist, dared to criticise the One True Book in front of "children". Oh, the shame! *rolls eyes*

"Wasn't it his campaign to change the way Google handles the keyword "Santorum", in a way that was egregiously in poor taste and works to defame a person and do damage to his character - because of political/religious difference. This should be part of the record we are talking about: "SANTORUM: The frothy mixture of lube and fecal matter that is sometimes the by-product of anal sex."---yes, he was. I wont say that i agree with all of dan's political sentiments. However, santorum is connected to a movement that has oppressed the lgbt community for a long time and has himself said and spread horrible defamatory remarks about gay people. So he got what was coming to him. "poor taste" is not a mark against a person's character for christ's sake. If it were then we'd have to sink the entire political order beneath the sea.

"In front of high school students, which included parochial school students, he refers to Biblical passages as "bullshit". He doesn't call those passages "antiquated", or provide a context for the verses. He calls them "bullshit"."--and your point is? Again, these parochial schools knew what they were getting into. They went anyway, likely for the express purpose of making a show out of leaving. Again, not all public school students come from religous families. Again, not all students come from a moralistic background--not everyone sees anything at all wrong with uttering the word "bullshit". Its called free speech, yo, you dont get to shut someone up just because you dont like what he has to say. And questioning the character of someone who criticizes the bible in a way you dont like is cheap and intolerant.

"But, yeah. He helps people. In grand and profound ways. I agree." --i don't believe youre being sincere, quite honestly. I think You're being sarcastic. I think you have no regard for his work and the people he supports. Instead you have your panties in a bunch because he swears a lot and dares to criticise the bible in ways you dont like. Shame on you

"That doesn't mean he should necessarily be given the microphone for a high school audience so he can be totally hypocritical in regards to bullying."--he's not. Again, as i said in a comment on the other thread, DS has never expressed hatred toward christians. He does not support the bullying of christians. He was fustrated with THIS group of people. He expressed the opinion that they were acting cowardly. He apologised. THIS DOES NOT EQUAL BULLYING. Show me examPles of cHristians commiting Suicide for being bullied for their religiosity, or being frightened to attend school, or being rejected as a teenager by their families--or LOSE the persecution complex.

"That's not what "appropriate" is all about.
"Plenty of parents" <> "appropriate speaker for a high school educational venue"--did i just get transported to the 1970s soviet union or something? Are seriously saying that students from non-religous families should not be able, at their highschool, to listen to a speaker that they and their family supports because you think it fails to meet yours and like minded peoples standards of what is appropriate?! Geez, This IS a free society, get with the program.

"So, let me get this straight. Before you saw him speak in that video, you accepted Scriptural teaching on homosexuality, though (I assume) you are not Christian, and (I assume) you are homosexual. (I'm assuming you are homosexual because you are taking an interest in what Christians think about homosexuals. I assume you are not a Christian, as your statement shows "me" and "them" mentality)."--you are thinking in horrorifically narrow terms. I am saying that, as an atheist, who belonged to an IFB church for nearly a decade, it is refreshing to discover intelligent christians who are not bigoted toward gays(and people of other races and ethnicities, for that matter). This has come about not only through dan's argument that the bibles teaching about homosexuality can be removed just as easily as its teachings about shellfish and slavery, but also through the countless articles, blogs and conversations happening all accross the internet. It has made me, as an atheist, a more tolerant person toward people i disagree with. And my sexual orientation is entirely irrelevant to this conversation and absolutely none of your damn business

"BTW, there is a thread where this is being discussed outside the "believer's safespace" area. This "safespace" is meant for believers' discussion, from the vast and varied views of believers."--the safespace rules do not ban atheists from speaking in threads posted here.

[Hollandmichigan]

(05-03-2012 11:50 AM)greg Wrote:  Dan Savage is a vile homosexual pervert, why would anyone expect something different from him?

My, my, you are quite the irksome little pest aren't you? *reaches for insect repellant*

[greg]

(05-03-2012 12:22 PM)myotch Wrote:  Shush-it, you. As a Christian, you should know that Christ died for him as much as He died for you.

We are all vile.

I'm not speaking filth to kids, I'm not lobbying Congress to make my sins protected, I don't have a depraved mind, I don't invent ways of doing evil. I'm not attempting to get my sins "accepted" by society, and have them be "tolerant" of my sins. Homosexuals not only continue to do these things, they approve of those that practice them.

My Bible tells me to be salt and light. I'm hoping your salt "isn't losing its savor."

[Scorpio]

greg has jumped the shark

[redbeardiam]

(05-03-2012 12:42 PM)greg Wrote:  I'm not speaking filth to kids,

Maybe not to kids.

Quote:I'm not lobbying Congress to make my sins protected... I'm not attempting to get my sins "accepted" by society, and have them be "tolerant" of my sins.

Society probably already accepts and tolerates your sins. No lobbying needed when your sins are the sins of the majority.

Quote:I don't have a depraved mind, I don't invent ways of doing evil.Homosexuals not only continue to do these things, they approve of those that practice them.

That you are making a sideways reference to scripture about sin and condemnation without recognizing it applies as much to you and to me as it does to gays is troubling.

The bigger Jesus gets in my life the more I am convicted of the depths of the depravity of my heart and mind. I am quite creative at sinning.

"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."

"But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through Jesus Christ..."

[myotch]

(05-03-2012 12:23 PM)Hollandmichigan Wrote:  --oh, ok, this person has only been vouched for by all these extraordinary people in our society, yet you still question his character to the point where you think he should be hidden from the innocent eyes and ears of the nation's youth. Maybe you put such a low value on a college education and the opinion of the President but i do not. I really get the feeling that whats going on here is that you think he's unacceptable because he, as a married gay man and an atheist, dared to criticise the One True Book in front of "children". Oh, the shame! *rolls eyes*

Great speech, dude. I like the part when the National Anthem was humming in the background.

I didn't say "shielded from the innocent youth" or whatever. All I said was that he was an inappropriate choice to speak in front of high school youth in an educational setting. I provided good reasons, too.

I don't care if he is college educated, President-approved, and saved a bus full of school children from both a tornado and a jihadi-terrorists.

His being gay, married, and atheist, has nothing to do with it. Stephen Fry is a gay atheist, and I wouldn't mind my kid going to an event where he is on the dais. Partly because Stephen Fry is cultured, polished, and can speak eloquently, get valid points across without being controversial and insulting.

Quote:---yes, he was. I wont say that i agree with all of dan's political sentiments. However, santorum is connected to a movement that has oppressed the lgbt community for a long time and has himself said and spread horrible defamatory remarks about gay people. So he got what was coming to him. "poor taste" is not a mark against a person's character for christ's sake. If it were then we'd have to sink the entire political order beneath the sea.

Oh, Santorum had it coming to him. i see. That makes it all better. I'll remember that the next time my kid has to do a report for school on presidential elections, and Googles all the candidates names, and I have to then sit down and explain the "adulting" of American politics, and that homosexuals are particularly fierce in their vindictiveness.

Quote:--and your point is? Again, these parochial schools knew what they were getting into. They went anyway, likely for the express purpose of making a show out of leaving.

I've heard this a couple of times on the thread. I don't know if you went to Christian school, but your assumption just doesn't ring true. If anything, Christian Schools go out of their way to shelter kids from "the world", and a planned silent walk-out just hasn't been their style.

Of course, you suggest that the walk out wasn't genuine and heart-felt on the part of the kids.

I'm a Christian School grad, and though I rail quite a bit on the education I received, I can say that the Christians I know from there are genuine, and it wouldn't take too many exclamations of "bullshit in the Bible" to genuinely shock and offend these kids. It does not surprise me to hear from you, however, that these kids could not have been genuinely offended on their own.

Quote:Again, not all public school students come from religous families. Again, not all students come from a moralistic background--not everyone sees anything at all wrong with uttering the word "bullshit".

It's not about religious, moralistic families. It's about what's appropriate and responsible coming from the speaker, or what one can reasonably expect coming from the speaker. I don't blame the speaker, per se. He should have never been invited to speak to a group of high school students.

Quote:Its called free speech, yo, you dont get to shut someone up just because you dont like what he has to say. And questioning the character of someone who criticizes the bible in a way you dont like is cheap and intolerant.

I'm all for free speech. I'm all for this guy's right to free speech. You may not recognize that with every right comes a responsibility. Just because I'm for free speech doesn't mean that I am for handing out a bunch of Hustler magazines to high school students, or inviting high school students to Howard Stern's lecture on the words you can't say on the radio. I think an educational organization like the one that set up this venue and speaking engagement has a responsibility to all the students there.

I'm not saying that the organization should only offer speaking engagements to somebody that all the students will agree with. Education lectures should challenge the way students think. They could even be on issues of a controversial nature.

Here's the thing. The issue this speaker was speaking on isn't even that controversial! The speaker made it so.

Quote:--i don't believe youre being sincere, quite honestly. I think You're being sarcastic. I think you have no regard for his work and the people he supports. Instead you have your panties in a bunch because he swears a lot and dares to criticise the bible in ways you dont like. Shame on you

Whatever. Don't be a douchebag.

I probably don't support his efforts. But I do recognize he has done some great work. That's what makes talking about this so frustrating, because, in general and on the issue of anti-bullying, he and I would have common cause.

Quote:--he's not. Again, as i said in a comment on the other thread, DS has never expressed hatred toward christians. He does not support the bullying of christians. He was fustrated with THIS group of people. He expressed the opinion that they were acting cowardly. He apologised. THIS DOES NOT EQUAL BULLYING. Show me examPles of cHristians commiting Suicide for being bullied for their religiosity, or being frightened to attend school, or being rejected as a teenager by their families--or LOSE the persecution complex.

I don't know of any Christian, even Greg, who would express hatred towards gays. OK, maybe Greg. I digress. But, still, you are making "hate" synonymous with "bullying". I more (and more rightly, IMO) associate bullying with teenage sociopathy.

There is no persecution complex here. You and I are having a discussion (in the wrong thread, methinks). But while we are critiquing each other, quit it with the histrionics. Kids of all stripes and creeds and lack of creed commit suicide for a variety of reasons, including feeling alienated from peers, being picked on, etc.

Quote:--did i just get transported to the 1970s soviet union or something? Are seriously saying that students from non-religous families should not be able, at their highschool, to listen to a speaker that they and their family supports because you think it fails to meet yours and like minded peoples standards of what is appropriate?! Geez, This IS a free society, get with the program.

No, I did not say that at all. You are displaying quite a range of emotion-induced inference. I do think it is good that kids be exposed to anyone who can challenge their thinking. However, the organizers of educational events have a responsibility to keep the speaking engagements to something that is age-appropriate, and dare I say, intellectually stimulating. Cursing and on-stage tantrums are not the hallmarks of age-appropriateness and intellectual stimulation when it comes to high school-age educational venues.

Quote:--you are thinking in horrorifically narrow terms. I am saying that, as an atheist, who belonged to an IFB church for nearly a decade, it is refreshing to discover intelligent christians who are not bigoted toward gays(and people of other races and ethnicities, for that matter).

I'm not bigoted, even towards gays. I have my religious opinions, sure, but they are compartmentalized and quite separate from my political and social/familial spheres. It doesn't mean that gays get any more or less of a pass on bad and irresponsible behavior.

Quote:This has come about not only through dan's argument that the bibles teaching about homosexuality can be removed just as easily as its teachings about shellfish and slavery, but also through the countless articles, blogs and conversations happening all accross the internet. It has made me, as an atheist, a more tolerant person toward people i disagree with. And my sexual orientation is entirely irrelevant to this conversation and absolutely none of your damn business

Well, if you can't be honest with me... It's all good, I guess I got it all figured out good enough for this conversation, at least.

As for the speech and what the Bible says...Here's the thing about speeches. What you want to communicate is often, too often, thrown under the bus by what you actually say. The operative words "shellfish", "slavery" (incredibly great points by themselves) was dwarfed, minisculized by the vulgarity "bullshit", which, to a section of the audience, became less controversial and more blasphemous AND profane.

Controversy = good (if responsibly rendered).

Profane = bad (in that "what does God want me to do right now? Leave? OK!" kind of way).

Quote:--the safespace rules do not ban atheists from speaking in threads posted here.

Yeah, I thought the point of safespace was more of "in-group" discussion. I could be wrong. Still, there's another thread.

[myotch]

doublepost

[Hollandmichigan]

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[quote='Hollandmichigan' pid='89481' dateline='1336052107']

"Bullying in school happens generally because someone is perceived as weaker, not in the majority in a significant way, "different". " it also happens when a segment of the population is deemed to be morally degenerate by people in authority--whether its the pastor at the local church, a teacher, a coach or whatever. Ive seen public schools where the bathrooms are monitored during proms and other events by students placed there by someone in the admin. To watch for same sex couples (straight couple, of course, are just being kids). Students are often encouraged and given a free pass for abusive behavior toward gay kids. And this is not rare, it happens in schools all across the country.

"And teens are rather sophomoric when it comes to complex issues, especially true when they pick and choose which Scripture they want to focus on." i doubt the majority of bullying cases have anything to do at all with scripture and more to do with the influence of peers and persons of authority in their lives. immaturity is no excuse for bullying any more than it is for other inappropriate behaviors.

"So, you and I must agree on what bullying means. Violence or threat of violence, intimidation and harassment of a nature that is usually habitual - this is what bullying means to me. Now that "bullying" has become newsworthy and even political, the meaning may have changed. I dunno."

Heres a good start:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullying#_

"Bullying is a form of aggressive behavior manifested by the use of force or coercion to affect others, particularly when the behavior is habitual and involves an imbalance of power. It can include verbal harassment, physical assault or coercion and may be directed repeatedly towards particular victims, perhaps on grounds of race, religion, gender, sexuality, or ability.[2][3] The "imbalance of power" may be social power and/or physical power. The victim of bullying is sometimes referred to as a "target"."

"... If a gay kid asks some other kid what he thinks of gay people or homosexuality, and that kid says "I'm against it, and let me tell you why" and proceeds to share Scripture, that's not bullying, harassment, or intimidation."--your understanding of sexuality isnt quite up to 21st century standards. Being gay is not an "activity" that one chooses to engage in but is rather an immutable quality. Imagine if a person of color were talking to a white guy who proceeded to "share" scripture with him that showed blacks are inferior to whites. If your views are that backward then i think keeping them to yourself is the best option. But the chances of this scenario actually playing out in reality seem quite low to me honestly.

Phew! Now i really must be off, i have a dentist appointment in 10 mins!