Christian-phobic speaker walked out on by student journalists

[myotch]

(05-02-2012 08:38 AM)FmrMarine Wrote:  I assume by "filthy, wicked homosexual perversion" you mean steamy man-on-man action, right? I mean everybody's cool with lesbians.

Yeah, go ahead, put a penny in him, why doncha?

[greg]

(05-01-2012 11:04 PM)Ricardo Wrote:  So you ignore the S&G story now? Where does the bible say it is about homosexuality? God had already decided to destroy them before the attempted gang rape incident. Homosexuality is NOT in the lists of sins attributed to S&G, no matter what you would like to use it for.

Jude 4-7's words are EKPORNEO and HETEROS SARX. There are many different theories about how to translate these words. How have you decided on "sexual immorality and perversion"? This is not just a matter of going to a dictionary or a lexicon and finding the words. Where are the authors of these dictionaries getting their information from? Unless it is fairly recent, you and me have better information than the authors of books written before 1972. See http://www.tlg.uci.edu/

How do you conclude that Romans 1 is remotely describing what happened in S&G? In the long lists of sins of S&G, I don't remember Idolatry being mentioned.

You have some way of respecting the Scriptures... Translate it in whatever way you want, make connections that are NOT THERE, and then use Gen 18-19 to attack a modern practice that has NOTHING to do with S&G.

Oh and when I ask you about one specific text, you ignore the problems I posit and simply go on to another text, you keep jumping from one text to the next.

We could go on like this forever.

Meanwhile, the issue here is bullying. The speaker at that conference seems to have made a case for how to attempt to bully people into accepting his beliefs. The issue is not whether he was right or not but the fact that he was being a bully.

Ricardo - I know alot of folks don't like me at SFL, but for me, you are one of the most aggravating folks that I deal with, but I do still like you, and I do see generosity and true caring for folks in your responses, which I will admit, get lost in some of my responses, but the attribute of yours that gives me the most problem, is your apparent lack of biblical understanding. I don't believe that if Jesus told you "yep I burned down S&G for homosexual perversion" You would believe it.

I am going to point out here just a huge glaring problem with your understanding of the Genesis account of S&G, that you have in this post, I really don't want to do it, because I know that you will pay no heed to it because of my past intereractions with you, but when someone completely undermines a biblical account of something this important, I just feel it has to be addressed, and then I will probably not be answering or dialoging with you on any other biblical matters.

You said "So you ignore the S&G story? Where does the bible say it's about homosexuality?" Wow, are you kidding?

The angels had come to town, looking like men, they wanted to spend the night in the square. Lot was insistent that was not a good idea, and that they needed to come spend the night at his place. Let's now pick up the biblical narrative at Genesis 19:4,5 "Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom - both young and old -surrounded the house. They called to Lot, 'Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."

Ummm......let me see, I just read this story about S&G and I'm not real sure about what their primary sin is. Maybe it's bullying? how about animal cruelty? Could we look some of these words up in a concordance? It's really not very clear to me, in English!!

Note something else in the narrative, "All" the men wanted to participate in this gay-pride par....filthy homosexual perversion criminal act against these two angels of the Living God. Not some, not a few, not just the bad ones, "All" of them, young and old alike.

How someone can confuse such a simple bible story is beyond me, sighs....but I'm done.....I think....

[dramaturge]

[dips toe in briefly] I would say, judging by both the story itself and the culture prevalent during that time, that the plot events of the story of S&G have about as much to do with homosexuality as prison rape has to do with homosexuality. [removes toe and leaves the pool area]

[myotch]

Greg,

The rape attempt on the two angels is only part of the story. God wanted to destroy the city because the inhabitants were grievously sinful. I don't take this to mean specifically and exclusively homosexual, though it may have included it. God then said he would not destroy the city if 50, 40, 30, 20, and finally just 10 righteous people could be found there. God then sends his men (we understand them to be angels), and instead of finding 10 men, the crowd of people insisted on sex with the angels.

Are we to assume that homosexuality was the prominent reason for their destruction? The Ezekial passage mentions arrogance, gluttony, aloofness, their being uncharitable, haughty, as well as doing detestable things. Let's say the detestable things were all about homosexuality and not, say, betting on dogfights or whipping children til they bled. It seems, from the Ezekial passage, that God's judgment was poured on them for a combination of a lot of different sins, not just one.

Gluttony. I think the passage actually said "overfed". There was someone in these threads that was trying to lose weight a while back...Who was it?

Oh, wait!

Greg, are you now or have you ever been a Sodomite?

(me thinks you doth protest too much)

...

I hope you know I'm kidding. But of quite a few sins, and by my reckoning, 7 of them being "deadly", you seem to be fixated on this one, well past the point where it was comical. It's just got a certain "creep" factor to it now.

[FmrMarine]

Take a step back... you all arguing about primitive bronze age men raping angels.

[Hollandmichigan]

I just have to laugh at the absurdity of people taking offense at this. this is dan savage, and anyone familiar with his "brand" would find the language he used here timid in comparison with his podcasts and other material. That being said, calli g the students panys-assed was out of line and he's publicly apologized for that remark on his twitter feed. As far as i'm concerned, Puritan America needs to grow a pair and realize there's worse things happening in the world than the public use of "crude" language that the majority of the population uses in private daily.

[myotch]

Ok. he has a brand, a track record. Was he an appropriate speaker for high schoolers? Does one really think he's a true anti-bully advocate?

Fairly typical of leftist hypocrisy, I guess it all depends on who's doing the bullying.

I'm not offended, BTW. I'd pay money to see Louis Black and I'd love to be singled out by Don Rickles. I've got thick skin. But they are entertainers. Savage's role that evening was that of a persuader, and he lost his opportunity.

[Ricardo]

Greg, thanks for sticking with the S&G story. But, true to form you start where it is convenient for you. Start in Gen18. There Abraham shows more compassion than god. God had already decided to kill all of them. NOT because of a future gang rape attempt.

Lot, who is called "just" in several other biblical passages, does not move a finger to protect his visitors and instead does the Christian thing and offers his virgin daughters to the crowd. Yes, homosexual gang rape is most definitely a grievous sin. Just as Heterosexual gang rape also is. See Judges 19-21.

Following your same logic with Gen 19, Judges 19-21 should convince us that heterosexual relations are also sin. In this story, the man does the Christian thing also and goes to sleep while the mob is having its way with his concubine. Wait a second: CONCUBINE???

But let's stick to S&G.

Other biblical passages refer back to Sodom and Gomorrah. In these passages there seems to be plenty to condemn about Sodom and Gomorrah. However, Homosexuality, as we define it, is not on any list describing Sodom’s sins.

Ezekiel 16:49-50 49Sodom's sins were pride, laziness, and gluttony, while the poor and needy suffered outside her door. 50She was proud and did loathsome things, (TOW’EVAH) so I wiped her out, as you have seen.

“TOW’EVAH” is Strong’s 08441, “Abomination,” word used to describe many issues which God does not particularly like. But it would be a stretch to assume of all things considered abominations by God, this verse refers to men sleeping with men, (Lev 18.) I would like to further study “abominations” later. I will also be studying further Jude 1:7: which lists as Sodom’s sins, “Sexual immorality” (EKPORNEOU) and going after “strange flesh” (HETEROS SARX.)

Meanwhile, the other Biblical passages that refer to Sodom and Gomorrah add quite an inventory of sins: murder, evil deeds, wicked ways, hatred, hostility, lack of hospitality, adultery, dishonesty, encouraging those who are doing evil instead of turning them away from their sins, pride, laziness, and gluttony, not helping the poor.

Isaiah 1:7-17 ...For your hands are covered with the blood of your innocent victims. 16...evil deeds ... wicked ways. 17Learn to do good. Seek justice. Help the oppressed. Defend the orphan. Fight for the rights of widows.
Isaiah 13:19 ...sin openly ... not one bit ashamed.
Jeremiah 23:14 ...adultery ... dishonesty... They encourage those who are doing evil instead of turning them away from their sins.
II Peter 2:6-8 ungodly people. Lot... was a good man who was sick of all the immorality and wickedness around him. 8Yes, he was a righteous man who was distressed by the wickedness he saw and heard day after day.

God may think men laying with men are an abomination, (Leviticus,) but other than homosexual gang rape, NOTHING in the Sodom & Gomorrah story, -or the verses referring to the Sodom and Gomorrah story-, support this claim.

In the verses above, does God clearly and unmistakably condemn Homosexuality, as understood today?

I believe the answer has to be NO, not in the Sodom and Gomorrah story.

One last thing:

Gen. 18:20-21 So the LORD told Abraham, "I have heard that the people of Sodom and Gomorrah are extremely evil, and that everything they do is wicked. 21I am going down to see whether or not these reports are true. Then I will know."

What? He did not know? Is this an Omnipotent God?

My god has more compassion than the god portrayed in Gen18. My god KNOWS what goes on. My God does not kill women and children for the sins of the men. My god values the life of daughters.

You cannot just pick and choose what lessons you are going to accept from the Sodom and Gomorrah story. You seem to be using this passage to condemn Love between two men, something that is not mentioned in the story, or sexual relations between consenting adults of the same gender, something that is also not mentioned in this story.

Instead of believing the bible when it lists twenty or so sins of S&G, you are making up a totally different sin: Homosexuality and somehow claiming Gen18 and 19 are about this sin.

Help me with my lack of biblical understanding.

How do you figure this story is actually a condemnation of Love between two consenting adults?

[Hollandmichigan]

(05-02-2012 03:01 PM)myotch Wrote:  Ok. he has a brand, a track record. Was he an appropriate speaker for high schoolers? Does one really think he's a true anti-bully advocate?

Fairly typical of leftist hypocrisy, I guess it all depends on who's doing the bullying.

I'm not offended, BTW. I'd pay money to see Louis Black and I'd love to be singled out by Don Rickles. I've got thick skin. But they are entertainers. Savage's role that evening was that of a persuader, and he lost his opportunity.

but why should he be considered inappropriate for highschoolers?! Because of the language he used? As you say, these are highschoolers, not only are they not five years old but theyve more than likely been exposed to cruder language and far cruder behaviors both at home and from their peers at school. Ultimately, this is something the highschoolers and their families should discuss between themselves, as everyone has their own individual beliefs concerning appropriate standards of conduct. Not all highschoolers are christian, or even religous for that matter, and not all come from a moralistic frame of mind.

Is he an anti-bully advocate?! He and his husband are known throughout the country, and probably a good deal outside of it, as being responsible for an anti-bullying campaign that enjoyed the participation of not only some of the biggest celebrities in America, but also the President of the US and secretary of State, for Heavens sake. Need i say more?

Maybe he failed to persuade YOU, and those kids who left, but the crowd who stayed behind and applauded his remarks obviously felt otherwise. And so did I.

[redbeardiam]

Since we're talking about this in two different places, I'll post it here too: Interesting commentary: Is Dan Savage The Gay Santorum?