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**Qrayze** · 04-22-2012, 11:06 PM

I was originally going to title this topic "The God of the Bible", but I thought that it might be taken the wrong way.

Frankly, I have a really hard time viewing God as this loving individual who wants us to live our lives doing what makes us happy and feeling fulfilled. That's not what the Old Testament says of him. At all. The Old Testament portrays him as a jealous controlling God who wants everyone to live by His rules.

I no longer believe that any part of the New Testament is supposed to be included in "God's Word", and seriously, if God really is a "loving individual who wants us to live our lives doing what makes us happy and feeling fulfilled", then He did not write the Old Testament either.

There was a poem I was taught at HAC, it went something like this:
The Holy Bible must've been
Inspired of God and not of men.
...something about no good man would decieve us
...something about no evil man "could e'er conceive it's wondrous plan".

Well, take a cold hard look at the various things that happened in the Old Testament. (not in Genesis, since those stories are told in almost every ancient civilization) To me it sounds like these modern day weirdos who say that God told them something that has to be done just to further their own purpose.

And seriously, the New Testament? It's a collection of LETTERS (mostly). Saying that that is "Scripture" is like saying the books put out by Schaap or any of the other crazies are also "Scripture"...tho many ppl treat those books like they are.

And it always gets me that Jesus mostly, if not always (too tired to check), referred to himself as the Son of Man. And in all of his responses to "How do I go to Heaven", he said nothing about grace or anything other than works.

For the longest time I have struggled with the existence of God, even when I was still drinking the koolaid, but I always kept going back to this one certain event that happened that, to me, "proved" the existence of God. About two months ago, I experienced another "event" that was almost exactly the same thing only it was NOT spiritual at all. So now I figure it's all in my head anyway. If I can experience two things that are almost exactly the same only on opposite sides of the holy spectrum, then maybe I'm just hallucinating.

I definitely believe in a spirit world, but if there is an Almighty God of the Universe, I really hope He isn't the one described in the Old Testament. That guy is a f*ckin' douche.

I told someone the following on facebook once; I just wish I still believed it: God is my creator, Jesus is my Saviour, and the Holy Spirit is always with me.

Yeah, I really wish I could still believe that.

/semi-incoherent ramblings

**Scorpio** · 04-23-2012, 07:04 AM

Q - this really resonates with me. I went through what you are talking about. I think to have any chance of believing, you have to completely white-wash your brain from everything you have ever been taught by the fundies. Start anew. Read alot from different people. Then you can come to your own conclusions on your own merit. Something not allowed in fundyland.
If I were ever to join another church, I think it would be Catholic. But that is just me.

Number_6 · 04-23-2012, 07:39 AM

I was never a true believer of IFB/Foursqare Christianity; I had started my time in religious schools at an Episcopalian place, and I preferred their laid-back psuedo-Catholic style to the ranting pastors, evangelists, and other touched people.

Even more proof that "You bring in more people with honey than vinegar."

Hollandmichigan · 04-23-2012, 07:50 AM

You could also make the plunge to full-fledged "heathen" like myself! Ive been reading the kjv on my iphone for a couple weeks for kicks, still can't believe i ever BELIEVED any of that

~~Persnickety Polecat~~ · 04-23-2012, 08:55 AM

(04-22-2012 11:06 PM)Qrayze Wrote: I was originally going to title this topic "The God of the Bible", but I thought that it might be taken the wrong way.

Frankly, I have a really hard time viewing God as this loving individual who wants us to live our lives doing what makes us happy and feeling fulfilled. That's not what the Old Testament says of him. At all. The Old Testament portrays him as a jealous controlling God who wants everyone to live by His rules.

I no longer believe that any part of the New Testament is supposed to be included in "God's Word", and seriously, if God really is a "loving individual who wants us to live our lives doing what makes us happy and feeling fulfilled", then He did not write the Old Testament either.

There was a poem I was taught at HAC, it went something like this:
The Holy Bible must've been
Inspired of God and not of men.
...something about no good man would decieve us
...something about no evil man "could e'er conceive it's wondrous plan".

Well, take a cold hard look at the various things that happened in the Old Testament. (not in Genesis, since those stories are told in almost every ancient civilization) To me it sounds like these modern day weirdos who say that God told them something that has to be done just to further their own purpose.

And seriously, the New Testament? It's a collection of LETTERS (mostly). Saying that that is "Scripture" is like saying the books put out by Schaap or any of the other crazies are also "Scripture"...tho many ppl treat those books like they are.

And it always gets me that Jesus mostly, if not always (too tired to check), referred to himself as the Son of Man. And in all of his responses to "How do I go to Heaven", he said nothing about grace or anything other than works.

For the longest time I have struggled with the existence of God, even when I was still drinking the koolaid, but I always kept going back to this one certain event that happened that, to me, "proved" the existence of God. About two months ago, I experienced another "event" that was almost exactly the same thing only it was NOT spiritual at all. So now I figure it's all in my head anyway. If I can experience two things that are almost exactly the same only on opposite sides of the holy spectrum, then maybe I'm just hallucinating.

I definitely believe in a spirit world, but if there is an Almighty God of the Universe, I really hope He isn't the one described in the Old Testament. That guy is a f*ckin' douche.

I told someone the following on facebook once; I just wish I still believed it: God is my creator, Jesus is my Saviour, and the Holy Spirit is always with me.

Yeah, I really wish I could still believe that.

/semi-incoherent ramblings

This is close to where I am. I believe in God, I just don't have a clue who he is or what he expects of us. It seems like this one idea of God has always been beaten into my head, but I've always rejected that. I have a really hard time believing in this loving, benevolent God, too, though. So .... Right now, I'm too weary to try to figure it out.

Jeremy · 04-23-2012, 09:02 AM

(04-23-2012 08:55 AM)Persnickety Polecat Wrote:
(04-22-2012 11:06 PM)Qrayze Wrote: I was originally going to title this topic "The God of the Bible", but I thought that it might be taken the wrong way.

Frankly, I have a really hard time viewing God as this loving individual who wants us to live our lives doing what makes us happy and feeling fulfilled. That's not what the Old Testament says of him. At all. The Old Testament portrays him as a jealous controlling God who wants everyone to live by His rules.

I no longer believe that any part of the New Testament is supposed to be included in "God's Word", and seriously, if God really is a "loving individual who wants us to live our lives doing what makes us happy and feeling fulfilled", then He did not write the Old Testament either.

There was a poem I was taught at HAC, it went something like this:
The Holy Bible must've been
Inspired of God and not of men.
...something about no good man would decieve us
...something about no evil man "could e'er conceive it's wondrous plan".

Well, take a cold hard look at the various things that happened in the Old Testament. (not in Genesis, since those stories are told in almost every ancient civilization) To me it sounds like these modern day weirdos who say that God told them something that has to be done just to further their own purpose.

And seriously, the New Testament? It's a collection of LETTERS (mostly). Saying that that is "Scripture" is like saying the books put out by Schaap or any of the other crazies are also "Scripture"...tho many ppl treat those books like they are.

And it always gets me that Jesus mostly, if not always (too tired to check), referred to himself as the Son of Man. And in all of his responses to "How do I go to Heaven", he said nothing about grace or anything other than works.

For the longest time I have struggled with the existence of God, even when I was still drinking the koolaid, but I always kept going back to this one certain event that happened that, to me, "proved" the existence of God. About two months ago, I experienced another "event" that was almost exactly the same thing only it was NOT spiritual at all. So now I figure it's all in my head anyway. If I can experience two things that are almost exactly the same only on opposite sides of the holy spectrum, then maybe I'm just hallucinating.

I definitely believe in a spirit world, but if there is an Almighty God of the Universe, I really hope He isn't the one described in the Old Testament. That guy is a f*ckin' douche.

I told someone the following on facebook once; I just wish I still believed it: God is my creator, Jesus is my Saviour, and the Holy Spirit is always with me.

Yeah, I really wish I could still believe that.

/semi-incoherent ramblings

This is close to where I am. I believe in God, I just don't have a clue who he is or what he expects of us. It seems like this one idea of God has always been beaten into my head, but I've always rejected that. I have a really hard time believing in this loving, benevolent God, too, though. So .... Right now, I'm too weary to try to figure it out.

Yeah. I just want all the religion to go away. I hope the loving God exists, but I don't even know if I want him to have a plan for me. That would mean that all my pain was a part of his plan, that he actively did it to me. And whenever he does anything good, does it mean he loves me? Because there are tons of people out there that are still suffering, does that mean he hates them? I don't know, and I don't really want to.

**Qrayze** · 04-23-2012, 09:21 AM

(04-23-2012 07:04 AM)Scorpio Wrote: Q - this really resonates with me. I went through what you are talking about. I think to have any chance of believing, you have to completely white-wash your brain from everything you have ever been taught by the fundies. Start anew. Read alot from different people. Then you can come to your own conclusions on your own merit. Something not allowed in fundyland.
If I were ever to join another church, I think it would be Catholic. But that is just me.

That's just the thing tho; the more I learn about all these different religions and non-religions, the more I think it's all just a bunch of bullshit designed to control the masses.

Take the flood for example; part of the reason for it was because "ever man did that which was right in his own eyes". Well, can't have people choosing for themselves what to do, right? Gotta kill them all! well, except for that one family down there who is drinkin' mah koolaid. A God who gives his creation free will wouldn't have started the flood because that creation decided to exercise it.

I have an athiest jewish friend who once told me of a joke in jewish circles. "Having a kid really mellowed God out."

I'm having a really hard time not just declaring it all as a bunch of bullshit.

I used to tell myself that if God really is all-powerful, then people wouldn't need to be brainwashed into believing in Him.

**Scorpio** · 04-23-2012, 09:53 AM

(04-23-2012 09:21 AM)Qrayze Wrote: That's just the thing tho; the more I learn about all these different religions and non-religions, the more I think it's all just a bunch of bullshit designed to control the masses.

There is nothing wrong with in your attempt to sort everything out, that you have come to that conclusion. I am reminded of a line that the Tom Hanks character said in Angels and Demons...."faith is a gift that I have not received yet".

And this is the thing, if you believe in God, then you have to believe that he gave you the brain you are using to come to the conclusions you are. I think things are more mysterious than the IFB makes them out to be. Anyone that thinks they have all the answers should be looked at suspicously.

Ricardo · 04-23-2012, 10:55 AM

The IFB trap: "You can only learn about God from the Bible."

If your understanding of God no longer fits the God described in the OT, the answer is not to drop God. (Hint: drop the Bible.) I keep harping on Rom 1:19-20, which would seem to disagree with John 14:6.

By the way, don't worry about the "agnostic" label. From Wikipedia: "agnosticism is the view that human reason is incapable of providing sufficient rational grounds to justify the belief that deities either do or do not exist." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism

There are plenty of us within Christian churches who would agree with that statement.

Is the Bible driving you crazy? Drop the bible.

The reaction I usually get when I say that is: "...oh, but if we do not learn about God through the bible, how are we going to learn about him?"

Believe me: that is just the logical progression from saying that you can only find God through the preaching of Jack Schaap...

It is a (human) power trip: Only my interpretation, of the specific translation I have chosen for you, of the specific canon I have selected, of the special collections of manuscripts I just happen to like...

If you need to, throw everything out.

Trapped Pentecostal · 04-23-2012, 11:05 AM

Qrayze, what you are experiencing is called "cognitive dissonance." Your brain is basically fighting itself because you are trying to keep several opposing ideas in your head.

As Ricardo said, if you want to continue to believe in God, but the Bible causes you problems, then drop the Bible. Maybe your path to spirituality is something other than the Judeo-Christian tradition. It's also possible that you may be an agnostic right now, but you will find something else that suits you later. Maybe you'll be able to reconcile your issues in the Bible. Maybe you'll go full-on heathen.

There is nothing wrong with saying, "I don't know if there is a god, and neither do you."

Personally, I've come to the conclusion that even if the God of the Bible is the one true god and he exists, that for him to have given us the rules as laid down in the Old Testament, and to have taken the actions he has against humanity, he is a douche, as you have stated yourself. Even if such a being exists, I will not worship him if that is his nature.