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GraceThruFaith · 04-10-2012, 04:47 PM

D-Stan, what is your exposure with Calvinist doctrine? Do you at least have an open mind to accept Calvinism or are you looking for confirmation bias? Are you emotionally able to accept that people will go to Hell and there's nothing they, or you, can do about it? Answering these questions will let me properly frame this discussion for not only me, but all those who wish to partake in the discussion.

Elijah Craig · 04-10-2012, 04:55 PM

(04-10-2012 04:47 PM)GraceThruFaith Wrote: Are you emotionally able to accept that people will go to Hell and there's nothing they, or you, can do about it?

**Tiarali** · 04-10-2012, 06:48 PM

Well, that's interesting. I was taught a completely different definition of God's hidden will. And that is the whole 'finding the will of God' drama. You know, if you want God's best for you, you have to go to the school he wants you to, get the job he wants you to, marry the spouse he chose for you, etc.

This view was debunked well in the book 'decision making and the will of God'.

I seriously met couples who married not because they love each other, but because they believed that it was God's will for them to do so. How tragic.

Tooktheredpill · (This post was last modified: 04-10-2012 06:58 PM by Tooktheredpill.)

All I have to say regarding this is universalism ftw.

God gets what God wants. And what God wants does not require us "to accept that people will go to Hell and there's nothing they, or you, can do about it"

D-Stan · 04-10-2012, 09:18 PM

@Elijah Craig That is a good analogy, but it seems like there should be one more thing added. The farmer who sent out the invitation for all the people to come in had a hidden desire that they not all come....so he didn't want all of them there. Even though it seemed like he did, and maybe in his own mind he did. I'm sorry if that is a misrepresentation, but that is how the doctrine seems to pan out for me.

@GraceThruFaith I was a Calvinist a couple of years ago. I did have an open mind to accept Calvinism. Whether I do now or not....well, it would take quite a bit to convince me of Calvinism at the moment. Let me say that I have no problem with Calvinists. I believe they are just as much a part of the body of Christ as anybody else is. One of my favorite preachers use to be Paul Washer, and I still listen to him every now and then(even though I agree with him less now....I still respect the man). Am I emotionally able to accept that some people will go to hell and there's nothing they, you, or me can do about it? Well, my initial point was not to debate about all of this. I must say, though, that I'm not sure that the Bible systematically lays out the notion that there is nothing a person can do in order to find God. Sure....we believe salvation is a work of God, but even in the epistles a person is justified by faith(which I mainly believe, but am kind of liberal these days and unsure exactly how it works in every situation).
I must be honest and say that I am starting to find it difficult to believe that Hell is an eternal fiery torment. I do have emotional thoughts against that because of things I read in Scripture about the nature of God. So I do not feel it is all emotional, but that aspect is definitely there. I do believe that judgment will occur and that hell is a bad place to be(even if it is just a place of remedial punishment). I would like for Christian Universalism to be true, but I am not quite sure of it to accept it just yet. Either way, I want all people to follow Jesus. Thanks for the questions.

Elijah Craig · 04-10-2012, 09:24 PM

(04-10-2012 09:18 PM)D-Stan Wrote: @Elijah Craig That is a good analogy, but it seems like there should be one more thing added. The farmer who sent out the invitation for all the people to come in had a hidden desire that they not all come....so he didn't want all of them there. Even though it seemed like he did, and maybe in his own mind he did. I'm sorry if that is a misrepresentation, but that is how the doctrine seems to pan out for me.

Ok, then let's say this:

The farmer doesn't want to pay more than five kids but wants to give all the kids a chance. So he posts the flier at the farmer's coops and calls the parents of the five kids. Only five show up per his plan. But he still made the offer and would have hired any kid who showed up. It's not his fault they didn't want to earn $10/hr.

D-Stan · 04-10-2012, 09:33 PM

Once again, that is a good analogy, and I thank you for it. I just don't see it as being an exact parallel. To be fair, analogies can only go so far sometimes.

NotUnderLaw · 04-10-2012, 11:57 PM

(04-10-2012 11:30 AM)D-Stan Wrote: The doctrine of God's revealed and hidden will is as follows: God's revealed will is that he desires none to perish and wants all to be saved. His hidden will, though, is that His glory is to be furthered and for the sake of His glory not all will be saved. This is a doctrine I have seen promoted mainly by Calvinists. Though, I think it may help them explain a couple of passages, I really don't feel that such a doctrine is helpful. Maybe I am not being fair, but here is what the doctrine sounds like to me: God wants something, but doesn't get what He wants because He ultimately wants something else. Thus, God causes Himself not to get what He wants...which is in fact what He wants??

Sorry if I sound rude here. The doctrine just sounds absurd, and I believe it would be better to say "I don't know" than to say all that other stuff. Does anyone else feel the same way? Does anyone else feel differently?

Yes, I feel the same way as you. Which is why I am not a calvinist (or a pagan).

NotUnderLaw · 04-11-2012, 12:00 AM

(04-10-2012 09:24 PM)Elijah Craig Wrote:
(04-10-2012 09:18 PM)D-Stan Wrote: @Elijah Craig That is a good analogy, but it seems like there should be one more thing added. The farmer who sent out the invitation for all the people to come in had a hidden desire that they not all come....so he didn't want all of them there. Even though it seemed like he did, and maybe in his own mind he did. I'm sorry if that is a misrepresentation, but that is how the doctrine seems to pan out for me.

Ok, then let's say this:

The farmer doesn't want to pay more than five kids but wants to give all the kids a chance. So he posts the flier at the farmer's coops and calls the parents of the five kids. Only five show up per his plan. But he still made the offer and would have hired any kid who showed up. It's not his fault they didn't want to earn $10/hr.

Does he put the kids who don't show up in a barn and light it on fire for not showing up?

Elijah Craig · 04-11-2012, 12:04 AM

(04-11-2012 12:00 AM)NotUnderLaw Wrote: Does he put the kids who don't show up in a barn and light it on fire for not showing up?

That's beyond the scope of the original question (and the title of the thread). It's related, I guess, but not the question I was answer nor one I care to answer right now.