Church

[JordanMaria]

(04-11-2012 11:55 AM)elfdream Wrote:  I hate to sound like a fundy cliche but I don't go to church to make friends. I go to worship God. (that sounds so...fundy and I'm sorry. I am being honest though).

I HAVE friends there but oddly enough I made friends with them outside of church. When we see each other its at non-church events. We don't talk about church because what is there to talk about when its a Catholic Mass? Unless we get assigned a new priest or something 'major' happens when we get together we talk about the weather or whatever.

It doesn't sound fundy. I agree. I wouldn't want to go to church to make friends either. Just worship. No pressure. No competition. End of story.

[Ricardo]

I don't know about this issue of going to mass only to worship.

The Spanish Catholic Mass here in Portland, ME comes with a potluck dinner after mass that is EXTREMELY important for people who do not have relatives of friends within five thousand miles. Same with the African Mass an hour before. (Sudan, Somalia, Rwanda, Burundi, Congo)

The church is a major community center of these communities.

It especially important for the Latino Immigrants since there is the issue of safety. (75% - 80% undocumented.)

[amyrose5]

But that is AFTER mass. Not during mass. And you are not required to have friends at church in order to be a Catholic in good standing.

You have to understand that the mega-church my friend went to considered networking, socialization, and making friends to be an integral part of the point of having a church. She was even taken aside at one point by a pastor and confronted over not having enough "church friends".

To her the idea that socializing with the people in the pew with us is not the purpose of going to mass made no sense whatsoever. The woman was not talking about what we might do after mass.

[elfdream]

We have a fellowship time after Mass but I chose not to attend. I have no problem with people doing so for whatever reason.

[myotch]

As an introvert, I kinda like those moments before mass. I can pray, reflect, examine myself and my conscience without a bunch of predator-like smiling faces invading my body space and thoughts. Not like before services at my mom's IFB, where the socializing does on through halfway of the first choral song.

[That'sWhatItSays]

There is no hope for recovering the true nature of church except in small fellowships, I think. The business aspect of religion has too thoroughly leavened Christianity for the truth to emerge victoriously.

Anyway, if we take away what is WRONG with Church, perhaps God's Spirit will be allowed to work in our midst the way things were intended?

Darrell, what do you think of "organic Christianity", or the thoughts expressed in Pagan Christianity by Barna and Viola? I think they don't have all of the answers, but they are definitely on the right path.

Some problems with church:

There is no single man called a "pastor" for each church in the New Testament. The Pastoral role as we know it today absolutely makes a mockery of the concept of a "body of Christ" performing various functions.

There are no salaried Christian workers in the New Testament. Local Bishops who didn't travel all of the time for evangelism were to work with their own hands, even providing for others (Acts 20:35). Not one single Bible-Believing, devil-hating, KJV, etc....has ever believed that passage one day in his life.

Tithing as it is practiced didn't even exist in the Old Testament, let alone in the New. It is taxation, pure and simple, for the purpose of serving a "king". I Samuel 8:9-17.

Those are my three main problems with any "church". Clergy/laity distinction, salaried Christians, and tithing to keep it going.

[Ricardo]

"Invading body space."

It is a cultural thing. In British churches there will be zero touching. In American churches you may have to shake a hand or two. In Latin American churches you will go through a gauntlet of hugs. Giving "The Peace" is a twenty minute part of the Mass.

Protestants may complain about the repetitiveness of the Mass, the liturgy. (As if the Protestant Liturgy weren't just as repetitive: "Lord, once again we are here in your Holy Temple...")

But when you REALLY pay attention to every element of the Catholic Mass, it is all there! It is a thing of beauty! There is worship, there is repentance, forgiveness, praise, worship, proclamation, three bible readings, AND the connection with our fellow believers.

Sometimes I feel that those of us from Protestant backgrounds get a lot more out of Catholic Mass than those parishioners who have always been Catholic.

[Ricardo]

That'swhat,

My first year of Divinity School I was obsessed with the "Primitive Church." That would be the church of Jerusalem from Pentecost until the year 70 AD. What I found out is that this church had as many problems as any other church.

And the churches Paul wrote his letters to? Same thing! Each one had one or more specific issues that Paul was writing to correct.

The idea that things were better "back when" is a Myth.

When a small church is "clicking" it is wonderful! But more often than not it will not last. There aren't enough resources, there is not the full complement of gifts needed to keep the effort going. And then, the risks of small churches going terribly wrong are HUGE.

When a large church is "clicking" it is a wonderful thing to experience. When you can have a Youth pastor who is good, a Pastor for the elderly community, a counseling pastor and a "preaching" pastor, it is a thing of beauty! (There is no reason to expect that any given pastor will have all those talents combined.) And then, the risks of being in a large church, where you cannot possibly meet every person, are also HUGE.

Some of us may understand your quotes of bishops working with their hands as proof-texting. Ghandhi took up spinning cotton. But it was really only symbolic. There were plenty of other people who could spin cotton way better than him.

[That'sWhatItSays]

"Working with your own hands" means earning your own money rather than demanding that others pay for your religious services, not necessarily manual labor. Am I off here? It's not just Acts 20:35, it is also strongly present for every Christian in II Thessalonians 3:7-9. I don't see how Paul could be an example to other believers if so few follow the example.

Yes, I use "proof-texting" to establish a different way of doing church, because we've been proof-texted in our circles so much, I feel like fighting fire with fire. For every Hebrews 13:17 that gets thrown at you, throw an Acts 20:33-35 right back. Malachi 3:10? I Corinthians 9:18, or maybe II Corinthians 9:7.

I'm just saying, it seems to me that the pattern for the church involves multiple elders, giving of money for the needs of the saints and missions, and humble service one to another. I could be wrong, but I've just always wondered why that isn't how any church I've ever seen operates.

[myotch]

(04-12-2012 04:56 AM)Ricardo Wrote:  "Invading body space."

It is a cultural thing. In British churches there will be zero touching. In American churches you may have to shake a hand or two. In Latin American churches you will go through a gauntlet of hugs. Giving "The Peace" is a twenty minute part of the Mass.

Protestants may complain about the repetitiveness of the Mass, the liturgy. (As if the Protestant Liturgy weren't just as repetitive: "Lord, once again we are here in your Holy Temple...")

But when you REALLY pay attention to every element of the Catholic Mass, it is all there! It is a thing of beauty! There is worship, there is repentance, forgiveness, praise, worship, proclamation, three bible readings, AND the connection with our fellow believers.

Sometimes I feel that those of us from Protestant backgrounds get a lot more out of Catholic Mass than those parishioners who have always been Catholic.

I don't know what to make of you, Ricky. Sometimes I disagree with you vehemently, and walk away from my computer before I go on one of my rants.

But I agree with everything you said here.

The Baptist churches I've been to had an equivalent to "a sign of peace" after the service has started. And yes, it goes on too long

I'm talking about before the opening song. Introductions, shaking hands, questions and answers, the too-joyful zombies. Not to mention the overwhelming smell of minted gums and breath-fresheners wafting over the sanctuary. It's sensory overload before the service begins. The only things missing are carnival barkers and neon lights. One wonders if there has ever been an epidemic of epileptic seizures prior to a Baptist service.