Church

[Darrell]

Quote:it turned out to be being pretty easy to simply look for that bit of divine light in each one of them.

So in all honestly you could be going to any organization such as the local Rotary club or bowling league or even just sitting outside by yourself looking at nature and still get the same result.

What you're experiencing there is not "church" unless "church" simply means the sum of every human experience. And if it means everything then there is no need for such a word because it ultimately means nothing.

[exOBCstudent]

(04-10-2012 09:26 AM)Ricardo Wrote:  Lately I've been visiting churches, more often than in the previous thirty years combined.

I'm loving it!

Emphasis on "VISITING."

A large part of the problem with churches are our unreasonable expectations.

Many of us still go to church to talk to God. (As if we couldn't talk to him anywhere else.)
Many of us still go to church to listen to God. (As if we couldn't listen to him anywhere else.)
Many of us still go to church to be in fellowship with other Christians. (As if going to church was any indication of who is or who is not a Christian.)

So, of course we set ourselves up for failure.

These days I visit churches because I'm on a mission. The community organization I volunteer with is trying to reach all Latinos in the area, especially the undocumented, and it just happens that churches are a safe place to find them.I make it a point to go to the whole service, not just drop in to make an announcement. I make it a point to talk to people, meet them, really listen to them. AND, I make it a point to find something in the service/mass that I can enjoy.

It has been wonderful!

I find myself enjoying Catholic masses, just as much as an hour of singing and an hour sermon at the Pentecostals, and even the bible studies at the Jehovah's Witnesses. (The vegetarian potlucks after the Adventists services are to die for.)

At first it was a hard exercise of "Take what you need and leave the rest." Because I could easily tear apart most sermons: Bad exegesis, texts out of context, weird doctrines and what-have-you.

But after a point, it turned out to be being pretty easy to simply look for that bit of divine light in each one of them.

So at least in my case, "no expectations" have really been a blessing!

I keep reminding myself of the story "The Gift of the Rabbi."
http://www.community4me.com/rabbisgift.html

That sounds awesome! I LOVE going to a church on an undercover mission!

If you have any local assignments I'd like to help.

[captain_solo]

(04-10-2012 09:31 AM)Darrell Wrote:  

Quote:it turned out to be being pretty easy to simply look for that bit of divine light in each one of them.

So in all honestly you could be going to any organization such as the local Rotary club or bowling league or even just sitting outside by yourself looking at nature and still get the same result.

What you're experiencing there is not "church" unless "church" simply means the sum of every human experience. And if it means everything then there is no need for such a word because it ultimately means nothing.

Yeah, well all that is good, and I do seek the divine in many of my personal experiences, but it doesn't really answer your original question does it. It is either non-existent or very rare to find what the NT describes as church. I have decided to be content with finding parts of it and attempting to hold my nose at the rest where possible. The problem is people intent on making church what it shouldn't be and rubbing my nose in that stuff so I can't ignore it, and that makes me leave the good behind and look for it elsewhere.

There should be indeed a special way that gathering together for worship becomes a communal fellowship with God, and there is certainly an organizational aspect that must be present since this feeling or experience will not always be there for everyone, but because humans are flawed, beginning with me, it just seems to fall short. Maybe this is why even Paul talked about longing for his time to be done on earth, but recognized his mission. I enjoy the people who personally bless me, I appreciate the opportunities I have to reciprocate, but the whole thing just satisfies me less and less, and I'm beginning to think thats how it should be...maybe.

[redbeardiam]

(04-10-2012 09:26 AM)Ricardo Wrote:  Many of us still go to church to talk to God. (As if we couldn't talk to him anywhere else.)
Many of us still go to church to listen to God. (As if we couldn't listen to him anywhere else.)
Many of us still go to church to be in fellowship with other Christians. (As if going to church was any indication of who is or who is not a Christian.)

So, of course we set ourselves up for failure.

Actually, all of those are excellent - even beautiful - reasons for going to church. Do you know how condescending you come off? You say 'many of us still...' before explaining how the enlightened Ricardo does things.

Of course I can talk to God outside of a church service, hear from him outside a church service, and fellowship with other christians. I can worship him by myself too. But there is something uniquely holy and lovely about a community doing these things together.

Darrell, I don't think church sucks. I think a lot of churches do though... and it's because the humans in them are easily distracted and focused on peripheral things. It's hard to keep a church focused on Jesus.

[Ricardo]

(04-10-2012 09:31 AM)Darrell Wrote:  So in all honestly you could be going to any organization such as the local Rotary club or bowling league or even just sitting outside by yourself looking at nature and still get the same result.

What you're experiencing there is not "church" unless "church" simply means the sum of every human experience. And if it means everything then there is no need for such a word because it ultimately means nothing.

Actually, yes!

Sometimes I have imagined that the meeting I'm at is a church, be it Rotary Club or a football game. Try it, you'll like it!

It is in the same vein as "Pray without ceasing" You mean to say you talk with God while you are driving? So if I'm praying all the time, doesn't that sort of "cheapen" those lofty prayers at church?

If I look for God's message in every interaction throughout the day, what does that do to our interactions at "church?"

I've heard talk about how their church is in this or that national park. When they go out hiking, they feel God's presence strongly. I remember that feeling when we were in the middle of the public market, evangelizing.

Needless to say, we need to define Church.

Are we the "Gathering of The Saints?" or are we a "Hospital for Sinners."

Can we laugh in church?

Do we all have to agree on this checklist of doctrines?

Can you let a Jehovah's Witness pray for you?

Want to find out how it feels to be lost with no hope of redemption? Go to a Chicago Cubs game. And guess what? Even there, God is with us.

[laurat99]

(04-10-2012 10:12 AM)Ricardo Wrote:  Want to find out how it feels to be lost with no hope of redemption? Go to a Chicago Cubs game. And guess what? Even there, God is with us.

But not with the Cubs.

[Papa Bear]

(04-10-2012 07:30 AM)Darrell Wrote:  Why does it suck so much?

Discuss.

Every problem in every church can be traced to the fact that they keep letting damned sinners in. But letting damned sinners in is the Church's reason for existence.

[Shoes]

"The problem with church is all the people in it." blahgh

i heard this so many time and i always think, whell then what the hell was church set up to be? no people? that's just dumb

that statement is a lame cope out placing the blame on the congregation rather than address the real problem, which was what the OP was all about.

I don't know why it suxz so hard sometimes

[Shoes]

but it does, sometime

[D-Stan]

Every week there's an evangelistic message to people who have believed for 20 years or longer. I'm not against evangelistic sermons, but sometimes they are overdone and ignore people who have other needs.