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TurningIntoDavid · 04-17-2012, 04:34 PM

Those verses were mostly for DonB123 because he wanted verses about hell.

(04-17-2012 04:01 PM)Presbygirl Wrote: Whoa,TiD, the verses you quoted above are totally taken out of context.

I'm saving that argument for when the more commonly used hell verses start appearing. Smile

(04-17-2012 04:01 PM)Presbygirl Wrote: Jonah 2:2 is metaphorical.

So he's saying that the belly of the fish is metaphorically similar to a place of eternal torment? That's a bit of a stretch, init?

(04-17-2012 04:01 PM)Presbygirl Wrote: Ps139:8 just means you can't escape Gods presence

Even if you're in hell, which is (on some interpretations) separation from God.

(04-17-2012 04:01 PM)Presbygirl Wrote: I Sam 2:6 the statemtent you bringeth down to the Hell and bringeth up means God has the power to do anything.

Agreed. Including rescuing anyone and everyone from hell who's there. 'Cause if it doesn't mean that, what good is it?

(04-17-2012 04:01 PM)Presbygirl Wrote: Gen 37:35 Huh? that doesn't mean Jacob is going to hell. It means to his own grave, and that he would never stop mourning for him and that he was tortured emotionally.

...So he thinks he's going to his grave, but he refers to it as hell. ...Or at least the KJV does.

(04-17-2012 04:01 PM)Presbygirl Wrote: Amos 9:2 again, God is everywhere and His love for the Israelites is constant.

God is in Hell. And Israel is trying to escape God's judgment by going there. Hell being a place of God's judgment. Which is really really weird.

(04-17-2012 04:01 PM)Presbygirl Wrote: Rev20:13:14 death and Hell were delivered and conquered forever. When Death and Hell are delivered into the lake of fire, that means judgement is final. Case closed by God forever. Again metaphorical.

So... if death and hell being tossed into the lake of fire is metaphorical, then why can't the people who don't believe being tossed into the lake of fire be metaphorical?

My opening point is that in many cases, the word that's translated "Hell" doesn't mean "eternal torment" at all, and in these cases, if it does man place of eternal torment, it causes some excruciatingly embarrassing exegetical problems. These are examples. Basically, every time you see the word Hell in the old testament, it's Sheol, a word that never meant "place of eternal torment."

Which means that the idea of Hell isn't in the Old testament. At all.

If you have verses to the contrary (for which the root word isn't "Sheol"), I'd love to see them.

04-17-2012, 04:36 PM

(04-17-2012 03:58 PM)TurningIntoDavid Wrote:
(04-17-2012 12:07 PM)Donb123 Wrote: That's right and He doesn't choose everyone. Romans 9 specifically says that some of use are clay that is formed into something good and some are clay that is fit for destruction.

The Brick Testament translated that verse and I've been waiting for just such a time as this...

Oh, that's deep.

TurningIntoDavid · 04-17-2012, 04:45 PM

The link on the image will take you to the Brick Testament where it came from, complete with the caption.

Donb123 · 04-17-2012, 05:20 PM

(04-17-2012 03:36 PM)Tooktheredpill Wrote:
Quote:The word "world" there simply means people outside of the nation of Israel. That was the big deal about the Gospel in that it was for Gentiles too.

The greek word for world is "kos'-mos." It essentially means the universe. http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/...osmos.html

2 problems with that:

1. It's an over-simplification. Jesus probably didn't die for the entire cosmos and I don't know if God loves rocks in planet Soltron 54- that'd be the "cosmos".

2. Context, audience, and cultural setting determine the usage of a word so the dictionary definition may or may not be helpful.

You're a fan of NTW- you know he'd agree with me. So my NTW trumps your online biblestudytool Smile

Donb123 · 04-17-2012, 05:28 PM

(04-17-2012 04:34 PM)TurningIntoDavid Wrote: Those verses were mostly for DonB123 because he wanted verses about hell.

My opening point is that in many cases, the word that's translated "Hell" doesn't mean "eternal torment" at all, and in these cases, if it does man place of eternal torment, it causes some excruciatingly embarrassing exegetical problems. These are examples. Basically, every time you see the word Hell in the old testament, it's Sheol, a word that never meant "place of eternal torment."

Which means that the idea of Hell isn't in the Old testament. At all.

I don't really disagree with any of that. I don't have a position on the nature of hell. I think people who do might be reading a tad bit too much medieval thought into the text.

I also agree that sheol of the OT isn't the eternal lake of fire. In fact sheol becomes hades in the NT and hades is cast into the lake of fire. What does that mean? I dunno. I doubt any of us that have not been there can be certain.

**Presbygirl** · 04-17-2012, 05:44 PM

Hey, y'all, TiD, Donb, dramaturge,

I am cleaning up dinner, thinking about all the posts, and I was wondering, is it probable that Hell isn't mentioned in the OT because no Saviour had come? So, why talk about a topic that doesn't need addressing bc Christ hadn't died?

Just wondering....

Donb123 · (This post was last modified: 04-17-2012 06:01 PM by Donb123.)

(04-17-2012 05:44 PM)Presbygirl Wrote: Hey, y'all, TiD, Donb, dramaturge,

I am cleaning up dinner, thinking about all the posts, and I was wondering, is it probable that Hell isn't mentioned in the OT because no Saviour had come? So, why talk about a topic that doesn't need addressing bc Christ hadn't died?

Just wondering....

A lot of things weren't revealed in the OT. That fact doesn't carry much weight with me.

Tooktheredpill · 04-17-2012, 06:19 PM

(04-17-2012 05:20 PM)Donb123 Wrote:
(04-17-2012 03:36 PM)Tooktheredpill Wrote: The greek word for world is "kos'-mos." It essentially means the universe. http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/...osmos.html

2 problems with that:

1. It's an over-simplification. Jesus probably didn't die for the entire cosmos and I don't know if God loves rocks in planet Soltron 54- that'd be the "cosmos".

2. Context, audience, and cultural setting determine the usage of a word so the dictionary definition may or may not be helpful.

You're a fan of NTW- you know he'd agree with me. So my NTW trumps your online biblestudytool

1. Based on how it's used elsewhere, it's a very inclusive word. Definitely not a word that's used simply to refer to some gentiles. We can't really say whether it includes the whole universe or just the Earth. I'd venture a guess that the death/resurrection of Jesus impacted the whole universe.

2. NTW would definitely agree with me. Smile

He emphasizes the cosmic effects of the resurrection.

Here's more support for the cosmic impact of Christ's death/resurrection:

Quote:For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. --Colossians 1:19

Quote:he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ. --Ephesians 1:9,10

Tooktheredpill · (This post was last modified: 04-17-2012 06:26 PM by Tooktheredpill.)

I've posted these before in another thread, but I think it would be appropriate to post them again here. These are the strongest verses in support of universalism, IMO.

Quote:John 12:32: And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

Acts 3:21: Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

Romans 5:18: Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

Romans 11:32: For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

1 Cor 15:22-28: 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

2 Cor 5:19: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

Phil 2:9-11: 9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Tim 2:4: who [God] wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

Titus 2:11: For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

Heb 2:9: But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

1 John 2:2: He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

2 Peter 3:9: The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

TurningIntoDavid · 04-17-2012, 07:13 PM

(04-17-2012 05:28 PM)Donb123 Wrote:
(04-17-2012 04:34 PM)TurningIntoDavid Wrote: Those verses were mostly for DonB123 because he wanted verses about hell.

My opening point is that in many cases, the word that's translated "Hell" doesn't mean "eternal torment" at all, and in these cases, if it does man place of eternal torment, it causes some excruciatingly embarrassing exegetical problems. These are examples. Basically, every time you see the word Hell in the old testament, it's Sheol, a word that never meant "place of eternal torment."

Which means that the idea of Hell isn't in the Old testament. At all.

I don't really disagree with any of that. I don't have a position on the nature of hell. I think people who do might be reading a tad bit too much medieval thought into the text.

I also agree that sheol of the OT isn't the eternal lake of fire. In fact sheol becomes hades in the NT and hades is cast into the lake of fire. What does that mean? I dunno. I doubt any of us that have not been there can be certain.

Cool

Yeah, I kinda have to agree with you on that. I have an intuition that God, at the end of time, will do what's right. In fact, I'm confident of it. I think that that means nobody will be suffering in hell forever. But even if it doesn't mean that, I don't think I'll be disappointed because I will understand all things, including why some people end up in hell. But until God explains that, and in light of the universalist passages and the mistranslations and jury-rigging of verses about hell, I think it's not the case.

Basically, it seems like Gehenna, Sheol/Hades, and Tartarus get mixed in with the lake of fire as being one and the same place - a place where some are tormented for all eternity (weeping and gnashing of teeth and what-not). With the KJV, it's easy to make this look that way - they're all translated, "Hell."

As far as I can tell,

Sheol isn't a place of eternal torment for humans,
Tartarus only shows up in reference to fallen angels,
Hades (where the rich man is and cannot escape from) is tossed into the lake of fire, so the no-escape clause from the story of the rich man and Lazarus doesn't apply,
Gehenna was the garbage dump where the fire never went out and the worm didn't die, but the verse says only the worm doesn't die and the fire is not quenched, not that the wicked don't ever die there or that their torment is never-ending, which makes it not a place of eternal torment for humans, and
The lake of fire is not identical with Gehenna.

And that's New Testament and Old Testament Hell. There are a number of proof-texts that only work if you allow definitions that are not obvious unless someone tells you that they are there. Smashing together all these concepts that are supposed to all be identical and all be hell really doesn't seem coherent to me.

(04-17-2012 05:44 PM)Presbygirl Wrote: Hey, y'all, TiD, Donb, dramaturge,

I am cleaning up dinner, thinking about all the posts, and I was wondering, is it probable that Hell isn't mentioned in the OT because no Saviour had come? So, why talk about a topic that doesn't need addressing bc Christ hadn't died?

Just wondering....

Hi Presbygirl! Smile

Welcome back! Big Grin

So my question with that is, what happened to the people who didn't accept Christ or do whatever it takes to be saved from hell prior to NT time? Did they simply not go to hell, or get a second chance after they died, or did they all go to heaven? If any of these are true, it'd suck more to be born after Jesus came than before! Whereas before Christ's sacrifice was efficacious for everyone, after, it's only efficacious for those who believe. Born in 200 BC somewhere far from Israel? Heaven-bound. Born in 200 AD and don't hear about Jesus? Sorry, you're bound for hell. Basically, after Jesus comes, instead of the requirements being less strenuous, they become more so.

God is not unjust.