A Fundamentalist View of Hell

[Donb123]

(04-16-2012 03:05 PM)TurningIntoDavid Wrote:  I really do have a problem with hell as it was taught me... but I think the problem still exists, even within inclusivism. I read The Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis and thought it was pretty good. Way more redemptive than the doctrine of hell I'd been taught. My problem, though, is the once-in-hell-always-in-hell assumption I'm crediting you with making, (which you may in fact not be making). I just can't see how God in His love ends up winning over evil when He has to keep some of his creatures whom He loves far from Him because they hate him for all eternity.

Yes, that is my position. I believe the Bible teaches, and the Church has historically taught this.

I see a problem in your scenario in that God is changing the hearts of reprobates in hell to cause them to love him. Now I believe that's what he does in the here and now as we are incapable of repenting and turning to him on our own volition. However, the rest of the story for those who believe this way is that God does this specifically for his elect. The elect is not a universal number.

So I'll make an addendum to my universalist summary statement from before and add universal election.

I'm failing to see the point of the gospel, the point of evangelism, or any of that if I'll be hooked up in the end. Sometimes Christianity is not easy. I'm not suggesting that, in some fundyesque way, that the doctrine of hell should cause us to work and trust in our works. But Jesus did say we were to deny ourselves, take up our cross, and follow him. I'm thinking I'd rather not bother with all that and he shouldn't have put that burden on me if it's rather unnecessary.

[TurningIntoDavid]

Rob, that's beautiful!

Maybe this is a sign that I'll never be a fundy preacher, but I love it when other people's arguments make sense.

I think the point of evangelism depends on the point of the atonement, and the nature of the good news that we're spreading. How I would phrase it is something like...

Quote:All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. (II. Corinthians 5:18-20, Non-Inspired Version)

So the good news, then, would be that God has come to earth. That God has died for our sins. That Christ is risen, and we shall too be risen with him. That we are bound as slaves to sin no more, but free - free to serve Christ!

(04-16-2012 03:35 PM)Donb123 Wrote:  But Jesus did say we were to deny ourselves, take up our cross, and follow him. I'm thinking I'd rather not bother with all that and he shouldn't have put that burden on me if it's rather unnecessary.

That, to me, sounds incredibly tragic. But unnecessary for what? For keeping out of hell? What if we've misunderstood Jesus (imagine, ex-fundies wondering if they've misunderstood Jesus - yet again!) and He's talking about people who want to follow Him where He's going? What if He's come to set a fire on the earth, one that He wishes was already started? What if He didn't come to condemn the world, but to save it? And what if being His disciple meant being a citizen of the kingdom of heaven, and what if that meant something radically different than going to heaven when you die? What if, instead of Christ's central goal being onlyto take us to heaven, His goal was to bring heaven to us? To start a new sort of kingdom, a kingdom of love?

[Donb123]

(04-16-2012 04:03 PM)TurningIntoDavid Wrote:  Rob, that's beautiful!

Maybe this is a sign that I'll never be a fundy preacher, but I love it when other people's arguments make sense.

I think the point of evangelism depends on the point of the atonement, and the nature of the good news that we're spreading. How I would phrase it is something like...

Quote:All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. (II. Corinthians 5:18-20, Non-Inspired Version)

So the good news, then, would be that God has come to earth. That God has died for our sins. That Christ is risen, and we shall too be risen with him. That we are bound as slaves to sin no more, but free - free to serve Christ!

But isn't that fairly irrelevant news if I get the benefits after I die? I don't see the point in you telling me about it now.

(04-16-2012 03:35 PM)Donb123 Wrote:  But Jesus did say we were to deny ourselves, take up our cross, and follow him. I'm thinking I'd rather not bother with all that and he shouldn't have put that burden on me if it's rather unnecessary.

Quote:That, to me, sounds incredibly tragic. But unnecessary for what? For keeping out of hell? What if we've misunderstood Jesus (imagine, ex-fundies wondering if they've misunderstood Jesus - yet again!) and He's talking about people who want to follow Him where He's going? What if He's come to set a fire on the earth, one that He wishes was already started? What if He didn't come to condemn the world, but to save it? And what if being His disciple meant being a citizen of the kingdom of heaven, and what if that meant something radically different than going to heaven when you die? What if, instead of Christ's central goal being onlyto take us to heaven, His goal was to bring heaven to us? To start a new sort of kingdom, a kingdom of love?

Well yeah, but that's a different subject isn't it? I don't believe in Jesus coming to buy us a ticket to heaven, rather he came to put the world to rights and establish his kingdom. The culmination of all that will be the fully redeemed and perfect new heaven and new earth. But Jesus himself did say that part of the deal in following him as leader of this new kingdom was the part about denying self and following him. Universalism says that I can safely ignore that and I'll get the hookup when I'm dead.

[pastor's wife]

I had a tendency to picture God as being in heaven choosing not to allow certain people to come to Him, as if, if He'd only relent a little bit on His standards, that they could come. But what if it's an impossibility for them to approach Him as they are?

1 John 1:5 says, "God is light; in him there is no darkness at all." In a lighted room, there is no darkness. It just can't be. You can't have a little piece of darkness. The light fills ALL. It's not that the selfish light won't let in the poor little dark but rather that by its very nature, light cannot exist in the same place as darkness.

[TurningIntoDavid]

(04-16-2012 04:25 PM)Donb123 Wrote:  But isn't that fairly irrelevant news if I get the benefits after I die? I don't see the point in you telling me about it now.

Say, hypothetically, you're a fundamentalist who's not sure you're sure you're saved, who thinks he's going to hell, or a calvinist who's not sure whether she's elect. That news is both relevant and life-altering! God has mercy on all, and we are called to imitate God, and so we too should have mercy on all, not just those who are nice to us.

(04-16-2012 04:25 PM)Donb123 Wrote:  Well yeah, but that's a different subject isn't it? I don't believe in Jesus coming to buy us a ticket to heaven, rather he came to put the world to rights and establish his kingdom. The culmination of all that will be the fully redeemed and perfect new heaven and new earth. But Jesus himself did say that part of the deal in following him as leader of this new kingdom was the part about denying self and following him. Universalism says that I can safely ignore that and I'll get the hookup when I'm dead.

Lol. First there's no point to me telling you that God's saving everybody, then next thing ya know we can safely ignore Jesus' commands if I'm right. Somebody once said that until you've preached grace to the point where you have someone ask you "Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?" you haven't preached grace. I'm toasting my success.

More to the point, though, shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Mi Genomai! (That's greek for "No Happen!") I wrote a blog on this about grace and how I think it works just a couple days ago.

(04-16-2012 04:47 PM)pastors wife Wrote:  I had a tendency to picture God as being in heaven choosing not to allow certain people to come to Him, as if, if He'd only relent a little bit on His standards, that they could come. But what if it's an impossibility for them to approach Him as they are?

Then God condescends to approach them as they are, which is precisely what God in Christ did.

[TurningIntoDavid]

And by "Rob" I meant "Don." I don't know what's wrong with my brain today.

In spite of not knowing any of you personally, I see you as friends. I'm enjoying this conversation, and I'm glad you've accepted me though I have some strange ideas. Welcome to ex-fundy-land, eh? Shalom.

[pastor's wife]

(04-16-2012 05:01 PM)TurningIntoDavid Wrote:  

(04-16-2012 04:47 PM)pastors wife Wrote:  I had a tendency to picture God as being in heaven choosing not to allow certain people to come to Him, as if, if He'd only relent a little bit on His standards, that they could come. But what if it's an impossibility for them to approach Him as they are?

Then God condescends to approach them as they are, which is precisely what God in Christ did.

I DO believe that! That's why it's the glorious good news of the Gospel! But I also think that's why they have to believe in Christ.

[TurningIntoDavid]

So... they have to believe in Christ because God in Christ condescends to approach them as they are? I can see how that would make sense... I still disagree.

Rock on for online forums where people can disagree and get along. =)

[pastor's wife]

In C. S. Lewis's final book in the Narnia series, The Last Battle, not all go into Aslan's Country, but some of those who are there are surprising to those who have loved Aslan all along. There are people (and creatures-- this IS Narnia, after all) there whom one might not expect to have been there.

It's another interesting picture of some of Lewis's ideas on heaven, God's grace, and the afterlife.

[TurningIntoDavid]

Emeth.