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**Tiarali** · 03-31-2012, 05:17 AM

And on the flip-side, I was made to feel like I was the substandard christian when I left IFB-dom because I wasn't 'living the life'. I have a fundy friend who is always patronising to me now. She's turned a blind eye to absolute filth, but she sees me as the backslidden, baby christian she needs to help.

The thing I've realised just recently is that I never stopped being a christian, regardless of how it looks to outsiders. All the way through, God and I kept a communication up. I know he's there, working in my life, and I talk to him, even if it's just to tell him that everything's so horrible that it's hard for me to still believe he cares. At times I've been able to tangibly feel him. Fair enough, I was going through a major crisis, so he was most likely letting me be aware of his presence more because I needed it.

But being a christian is far more than living a life and believing a book. It's a cord of relationship that ties you to your saviour. And I'm not sure if that can be broken.

Elijah Craig · 04-02-2012, 07:42 PM

(03-30-2012 05:21 AM)squiz Wrote: http://fallenfromgrace.net/2012/03/30/wh...you-bruce/

I found this to be a remarkably open and soul-searching report of his time as an IFB pastor, which I thought might be of interest to people here.

After a lifetime as an IFB pastor, this guy is an atheist now. I don't want to be pushing any atheist propaganda on you guys, as everyone has to find his own path. But I think you have to admit that he appears remarkably and commendably honest with himself.

I discovered it a couple years ago when I was going through my own crisis of faith. I understood a lot of what he says but rather than being a strident atheist my struggles have been with agnosticism. I think I have enough education in evangelicalism, and enough exposure to liberal Christianity, that I don't fall for standard atheist arguments as easily. I still adhere to Christian morals and see enormous historical and cultural value in the religious tradition of the West. It's just that on a day to day basis, I find Christians to have very unrealistic views of the world and to be very hard to deal with.

I've since moved out of agnosticism into faith of a sort, of a definitely Christian sort, but what exactly it is cannot be defined precisely, and precisely because I distrust anyone who answers such questions with too much precision.

squiz · 04-04-2012, 03:04 AM

A few comments here that seem to be getting close to claiming that he can't have been a true believer. I assume this is due to the difficulty of reconciling the "once saved always saved" doctrine with his current unbelief. I have encountered this myself a few times in my life. Either people say "you'll go back", or they insist that I can't have been a true believer. It is a longer time ago for me, but I also remember truly believing. Now, of course, I see that belief in a different light. His negative way of describing his previous life and beliefs seem more to be due to his current view of that life. You can't look inside another person's mind, all you can do is form opinions based on what they show you. I think this is what he meant by this. I imagine he would have described it very differently back then.

squiz · 04-05-2012, 10:49 AM

(03-31-2012 05:17 AM)tiarali Wrote: ...
The thing I've realised just recently is that I never stopped being a christian, regardless of how it looks to outsiders. All the way through, God and I kept a communication up. I know he's there, working in my life, and I talk to him, even if it's just to tell him that everything's so horrible that it's hard for me to still believe he cares. At times I've been able to tangibly feel him. Fair enough, I was going through a major crisis, so he was most likely letting me be aware of his presence more because I needed it.

But being a christian is far more than living a life and believing a book. It's a cord of relationship that ties you to your saviour. And I'm not sure if that can be broken.

Thanks for the honest account. I often hear people describe having a "personal relationship" with God. (This is pretty much a modern evangelical idea I suspect, but I digress). A relationship requires communication in both directions. You describe how in your case you believe God communicated with you through your feelings. I accept that. Do you believe that such feelings are a necessary part of being saved? What about people who believe and trust in God with all their heart, but hear or feel nothing at all from God? What about Job (until the whirlwind)? Are they really saved? I suspect in some circles (esp. charismatic) so much importance is placed on this relationship that many would be ashamed to admit that they actually feel nothing - even to themselves. Is it through faith in God that people are saved, or through being blessed with (or achieving?) this relationship?
Please don't take this as a criticism. This sort of stuff has bothered me for a while, and I am just trying to take this idea a bit further.

**Tiarali** · 04-05-2012, 05:53 PM

I have been through many times in my life that I did not physically feel God. When I do, it's usually that I'm in severe distress and needed his comfort. I do not mean that you need those feelings to be saved really. Just that salvation is about entering into a relationship with someone. I believe you can believe the bible and be acting like a Christian without actually entering into a relationship.

04-09-2012, 10:29 PM

(03-31-2012 05:17 AM)tiarali Wrote: And on the flip-side, I was made to feel like I was the substandard christian when I left IFB-dom because I wasn't 'living the life'. I have a fundy friend who is always patronising to me now. She's turned a blind eye to absolute filth, but she sees me as the backslidden, baby christian she needs to help.

The thing I've realised just recently is that I never stopped being a christian, regardless of how it looks to outsiders. All the way through, God and I kept a communication up. I know he's there, working in my life, and I talk to him, even if it's just to tell him that everything's so horrible that it's hard for me to still believe he cares. At times I've been able to tangibly feel him. Fair enough, I was going through a major crisis, so he was most likely letting me be aware of his presence more because I needed it.

But being a christian is far more than living a life and believing a book. It's a cord of relationship that ties you to your saviour. And I'm not sure if that can be broken.

You know God better than I do.