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squiz · 03-30-2012, 05:21 AM

http://fallenfromgrace.net/2012/03/30/wh...you-bruce/

I found this to be a remarkably open and soul-searching report of his time as an IFB pastor, which I thought might be of interest to people here.

After a lifetime as an IFB pastor, this guy is an atheist now. I don't want to be pushing any atheist propaganda on you guys, as everyone has to find his own path. But I think you have to admit that he appears remarkably and commendably honest with himself.

WanderingTraveler · 03-30-2012, 06:47 AM

I read that post and another one, and I can see where he is coming from. My impression of him is it seems like he was one of those Baptist that I see so often. Taught what was right and that Christianity is the way, but not why it is the way, or who Christ really is. Seems like he was taught to be a Christian simply because his parents and MOG said he should be.

Thank you for posting this. Smile

squiz · 03-30-2012, 01:00 PM

(03-30-2012 06:47 AM)WanderingTraveler Wrote: I read that post and another one, and I can see where he is coming from. My impression of him is it seems like he was one of those Baptist that I see so often. Taught what was right and that Christianity is the way, but not why it is the way, or who Christ really is. Seems like he was taught to be a Christian simply because his parents and MOG said he should be.

Thank you for posting this.

This sounds dangerously close to asserting that he can't have been a true believer after all. He talks about just this where he says

Quote:I double-dog dare anyone to show that I was never a Christian. I lived the life. I believed the book. Any suggestion that I was never really a Christian is laughable.

I think it is hard for some to admit this, as it doesn't fit in with the doctrine.

Anyway, it is the guy's unusual honesty that I admire.

elfdream · 03-30-2012, 01:21 PM

I've heard of this guy. He is in a place I was in many years ago. I just dropped everything. The difference is that I picked it back up again.

notdrinkingthekoolaid · 03-30-2012, 02:09 PM

Wow...I admire his honesty...and humility. Thanks for sharing the link.

**redbeardiam** · 03-30-2012, 03:52 PM

Ya know, I'm glad this thread isn't what it could have been, considering the title.

I found this site last summer... great honesty.

WanderingTraveler · (This post was last modified: 03-30-2012 05:44 PM by WanderingTraveler.)

(03-30-2012 01:00 PM)squiz Wrote:
(03-30-2012 06:47 AM)WanderingTraveler Wrote: I read that post and another one, and I can see where he is coming from. My impression of him is it seems like he was one of those Baptist that I see so often. Taught what was right and that Christianity is the way, but not why it is the way, or who Christ really is. Seems like he was taught to be a Christian simply because his parents and MOG said he should be.

Thank you for posting this.

This sounds dangerously close to asserting that he can't have been a true believer after all. He talks about just this where he says
Quote:I double-dog dare anyone to show that I was never a Christian. I lived the life. I believed the book. Any suggestion that I was never really a Christian is laughable.
I think it is hard for some to admit this, as it doesn't fit in with the doctrine.

Anyway, it is the guy's unusual honesty that I admire.

I didn't say that. I was not implying that at all. I greatly admire his honesty. I was saying, he sounds like he was a believer simply because he was told that was what he was supposed to be. I am not saying he wasn't a true believer. All I am saying is, I wonder if his was a case where he was truly a believer, but didn't know why he believed what he believed. And then, when he found out more, decided to walk away.
I do believe that we all go through a time where we really doubt what we believe. But we know, without a doubt, we are a true believer. Then we have to figure out why we believe what we believe.

squiz · 03-30-2012, 07:12 PM

(03-30-2012 05:38 PM)WanderingTraveler Wrote: I didn't say that. I was not implying that at all. I greatly admire his honesty. I was saying, he sounds like he was a believer simply because he was told that was what he was supposed to be. I am not saying he wasn't a true believer. All I am saying is, I wonder if his was a case where he was truly a believer, but didn't know why he believed what he believed. And then, when he found out more, decided to walk away.
I do believe that we all go through a time where we really doubt what we believe. But we know, without a doubt, we are a true believer. Then we have to figure out why we believe what we believe.

No worries then. I guess I reacted too quickly.

**myotch** · 03-31-2012, 12:05 AM

(03-30-2012 01:00 PM)squiz Wrote: He talks about just this where he says
Quote:I double-dog dare anyone to show that I was never a Christian. I lived the life. I believed the book. Any suggestion that I was never really a Christian is laughable.
I think it is hard for some to admit this, as it doesn't fit in with the doctrine.

Anyway, it is the guy's unusual honesty that I admire.

I dunno if I'm playing devil's advocate, or being contrarian, or what, but this quote of his bothers me.

"Living the life" does not equal "having faith". I guess that's what he means by it.

I was on the "living the life" kick when I was on the verge of leaving Baptist-dom. A good friend studying to be a pastor really pissed me off when he said tithing, going to church, praying, leaving matters to God wasn't enough. All good thoughts by themselves, but his premise was that I needed to get myself and my family into church more.

When you base Christianity on what others can see, upon the double-dog dare of producing evidence to "show" that one is or was a Christian - there's something false about it.

It's the standards of the IFB that really get to me in regards to the "show me" remark. The standards are practically begging for a burn-out of the faith.

I'm sure he was a good Baptist. One could be an excellent Baptist, but if the faith is based on a bad foundation...

WanderingTraveler · 03-31-2012, 05:16 AM

(03-31-2012 12:05 AM)myotch Wrote:
(03-30-2012 01:00 PM)squiz Wrote: He talks about just this where he says I think it is hard for some to admit this, as it doesn't fit in with the doctrine.

Anyway, it is the guy's unusual honesty that I admire.

I dunno if I'm playing devil's advocate, or being contrarian, or what, but this quote of his bothers me.

"Living the life" does not equal "having faith". I guess that's what he means by it.

I was on the "living the life" kick when I was on the verge of leaving Baptist-dom. A good friend studying to be a pastor really pissed me off when he said tithing, going to church, praying, leaving matters to God wasn't enough. All good thoughts by themselves, but his premise was that I needed to get myself and my family into church more.

When you base Christianity on what others can see, upon the double-dog dare of producing evidence to "show" that one is or was a Christian - there's something false about it.

It's the standards of the IFB that really get to me in regards to the "show me" remark. The standards are practically begging for a burn-out of the faith.

I'm sure he was a good Baptist. One could be an excellent Baptist, but if the faith is based on a bad foundation...

myotch, you put perfectly exactly what I was thinking. I just didn't know how to put it in a gracious way.
Again, still not saying he wasn't a true believer. No one but God knows the heart. But being a "by the book" believer (Christian, Baptist, whathaveyou) can be a totally different thing from a true believer.