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***Darrell*** · 03-26-2012, 09:11 PM

Quote:The biggest thing we don't know is why Mr. Zimmerman was driving around with a 9mm on citizen patrol.

He had a CCW permit. The gun was his. There wasn't any legal reason for him not to be exercising his second amendment right while walking around his neighborhood.

Was it the smartest thing to be doing? Was it violating the neighborhood watch rules? I don't know.

bean · 03-26-2012, 09:26 PM

Yeah not sure either. I'm all in favor of the second amendment, lots of folks around here have guns. I'd say 80 plus percent of the homes are heavily armed and lots of people have hunting guns in their pickups. But not many running around with 9mm handguns for protection either...but again, it's a different world up here.

***Darrell*** · 03-26-2012, 09:40 PM

Quote:not many running around with 9mm handguns for protection either

If they're carrying concealed how would you know? Smile

**redbeardiam** · 03-26-2012, 09:44 PM

One thing that's come to light is the outrageously broad way this 'stand your ground' law is being applied in FL.

Like the guy who chased a suspected burglar for a block or two, stabbed him to death, and got off.

And the guy who got into an altercation at a carnival, went home and got his gun, came back and killed the other guy... and had charges dropped. (Sorry, I can't find the link for this one.)

Or the guy who, drunk, shot a couple of guys who came on his boat looking for money he owed them.

In the Martin case what is certain is that an armed man in a car followed an unarmed man on foot after being instructed by police not to, and then killed him. How one can claim self-defense after provoking a confrontation is beyond me.

***Darrell*** · 03-26-2012, 09:55 PM

it's more like "an armed man in a car followed an unarmed man on foot after being instructed by police not to [them some stuff happened here] and then killed him."

And that's why I keep saying that we just don't know exactly what happened. It's easy to armchair quarterback this one but it would be silly to make too many hard and fast judgments given all the blanks that have yet to be filled in.

**myotch** · (This post was last modified: 03-26-2012 10:03 PM by myotch.)

Because there are witnesses to part of the attack, and their account corroborates Zimmerman's account and Zimmerman's wounds.

OK, the police have a dead body. They actually want to do the paperwork on this one. Zimmerman gives his account. The witnesses give their accounts. No one saw Zimmerman assaulting Martin. They did see Martin on top of Zimmerman bashing his head into the road.

We don't know what happened before that, except for what Zimmerman says happened. Let's say we don't trust his account whatsoever. But you do have the other witnesses in the case. And to the police, it seems at some point, this became an act of self defense with a homicide. Even with the 911 calls, even with the dispatcher, even with all the evidence and suppositions...Is this case prosecutable? if so, what charge?

I have a 17 year old at home. The age of the kid hits close to the heart for me, too. and if I sit and dwell on this too long, I'll begin to question why I didn't die some horrible mistaken death at 17.

**redbeardiam** · 03-26-2012, 10:35 PM

(03-26-2012 09:55 PM)Darrell Wrote: it's more like "an armed man in a car followed an unarmed man on foot after being instructed by police not to [them some stuff happened here] and then killed him."

And that's why I keep saying that we just don't know exactly what happened.

Sure. But given the established facts that we agree upon, how can that possibly be justifiable homicide? If I chase you, accost you, and when you start kicking my ass I shoot you, is that self-defense?

***Darrell*** · 03-26-2012, 10:40 PM

Quote: If I chase you, accost you, and when you start kicking my ass I shoot you, is that self-defense?

Did he accost him? That's the $64,000 question.

The way Zimmerman tells the story he chased the kid, the kid turned around and threw the first punch then started beating his head into the ground.

Like I said...we just don't know exactly what the sequence of events was here. And that's all-important in this kind of case.

**redbeardiam** · 03-26-2012, 10:49 PM

(03-26-2012 10:40 PM)Darrell Wrote:
Quote: If I chase you, accost you, and when you start kicking my ass I shoot you, is that self-defense?

Did he accost him? That's the $64,000 question.

The way Zimmerman tells the story he chased the kid, the kid turned around and threw the first punch then started beating his head into the ground.

Like I said...we just don't know exactly what the sequence of events was here. And that's all-important in this kind of case.

Okay. Let's use a different word. Is it safe to say, based on what we do know, that Zimmerman initiated the confrontation?

If so, does that have any bearing on the claim to self-defense?

***Darrell*** · 03-26-2012, 10:54 PM

Quote:Is it safe to say, based on what we do know, that Zimmerman initiated the confrontation?

If so, does that have any bearing on the claim to self-defense?

In general suppose you're walking down the street and see someone acting suspiciously. You run over there and say "hey, what's going on?" The persons runs off so you give chase until they suddenly stop, turn around and and slug you and then proceed to beat your head in.

Do you at that point no longer have the right to defend yourself because you gave chase to this apparent suspicious character? Or is giving chase itself a "perceived threat"?

I'd have to get some legal opinions from lawyers and law enforcement people in Florida. I just don't know.