Love of Money.

[That'sWhatItSays]

Attend IBC. Saved for over twenty years. Have books by all the names. Seen it all, heard it all, read it all.

I've got a couple of heresies I detect from the word of God in regards to the way we "do church" in IBC, but I just want to focus on one. I'd be interested in seeing anyone's take on this one.

Professional Clergy. Is it a heresy or not? I'm not talking I Corinthians 9 and supporting gospel workers, missionaries, or evangelists. Plain old clergy (that's what they are) getting a salary.

1. I Peter 5:1,2. The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

All right, stay with me here...

2. I Thessalonians 3:6-12. Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you; Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you: Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us. For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat. For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies. Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.

3. I Corinthians 9:18. What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.

Okay, those were just general theme passages. Here it is

4. Acts 20:17,32-35. And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church...And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified. I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel. Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me. I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.

Thanks.

[Shoes]

The ‘proof text’ that will get thrown at you:

’Bible’ Wrote:Deuteronomy 25:4
Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn. [ummm …. O.K.?]

Luke 10:7
And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.

With all of your verses from the Pauline Epistles/ New Testament, I think this would be a good tradition to discuss.

The preists in the Old Testament were provided for by the rest of the tribes of Israel. I know that preist<>pastor, but that might be a precedent ‘they’ might throw out there.

[exOBCstudent]

I think you're on the right track here. It's amazing what we can discover if we study the Scriptures without a pre-programmed mindset isn't it?

Next subject you might like to study "Tithing and the NT Church"....an interesting study indeed.

I personally think that pastors should have to have an honest job like everyone else so they can keep in perspective how much they're demanding from everyone else to help "run the show" so to speak.

[redbeardiam]

My take: The scriptures don't say conclusively one way or another. They certainly don't forbid pastors from being paid, but the apostle Paul found it was wiser to work making tents and support himself.

Practically, I've seen both sides, and it can help a church tremendously to have a pastor who can focus on the work of the ministry as his full-time job.

On the other hand, spending some time in the 'real world' is probably helpful for most pastors. Whether it's a part-time job to supplement what the church is able to pay, or whether he works full-time while pastoring, or whether he eventually transitions from full-time 'outside' work to a full-time pastorate position. I'm a little mistrustful of the guys who go straight from Bible college/seminary to a full-time pastorate, never having gone through what their people have to go through on a daily basis.

[exOBCstudent]

(02-16-2012 03:20 PM)redbeardiam Wrote:  My take: The scriptures don't say conclusively one way or another. They certainly don't forbid pastors from being paid, but the apostle Paul found it was wiser to work making tents and support himself.

Practically, I've seen both sides, and it can help a church tremendously to have a pastor who can focus on the work of the ministry as his full-time job.

On the other hand, spending some time in the 'real world' is probably helpful for most pastors. Whether it's a part-time job to supplement what the church is able to pay, or whether he works full-time while pastoring, or whether he eventually transitions from full-time 'outside' work to a full-time pastorate position. I'm a little mistrustful of the guys who go straight from Bible college/seminary to a full-time pastorate, never having gone through what their people have to go through on a daily basis.

Bingo! That's exactly what I had in mind as well.

[Tiarali]

I think some churches that have a fairly normal world-view are fine regardless. But the fundy pastor I knew was absorbed in the church mentality, to the point of being completely out of touch and making shocking decisions. And he was a lawyer before he was a pastor (and that fact is used to deride anyone who tries to point out just how wrong his decisions are).

[Elijah Craig]

(02-16-2012 03:20 PM)redbeardiam Wrote:  I'm a little mistrustful of the guys who go straight from Bible college/seminary to a full-time pastorate, never having gone through what their people have to go through on a daily basis.

This. Having lived on the campus of a seminary, a large number of these people think money grows on trees. They cannot understand why people won't give so they can go on a "mission trip" to <insert exotic location>.

Many think that seminary is just like any other grad school and will position them to provide for their family. I've heard of a lot of guys holding out for a pastorate that pays at least $70k. I'm serious.

Many of them get punched in the face by reality when they decide to "replenish the earth" and bring a child into the world. Suddenly there's all kinda bills they can't afford being a barista at Starbucks 15 hours a week. There are other dudes who stay at home and "study" while the wife works full time.

I thought it'd be different once I got away from IFB churches but if anything it's worse in evangelicalism. At least IFB Bible college students have no illusions about pulling down a big income. If they get $30k a year they think they're in high cotton.

[That'sWhatItSays]

Pastors preach on tithing because of tradition, the need for money, and to lay burdens on the people that will make them feel "spiritual" since they generally aren't allowed to do anything in the church service.

Tithing is a heresy as well, steve-w. Tithing is NOT a bare minimum. It's theft when it involves all people, regardless of socio-economic status. I recommend reading all the articles on this site. What an eye-opener.

http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/

[redbeardiam]

The h-word is a bit overused man.

I do agree that there there is no New Testament requirement to give 10% and that pastors who preach tithing as a floor for giving are doing so because they are desperate to establish a strong financial base for their church.

I just started tithing again myself, because I see the giving of 10% as a common pattern throughout scripture, and it's a simple number. It's also sacrificial for my family, and I do it joyfully, and those two things are more important than the percentage of my gross income.

[That'sWhatItSays]

The word tithe means "tenth". There is no reason to say the number is not important when the number is contained within the word itself.

There is no giving of ten percent of anyone's income anywhere in scripture, redbeard, could you point me to one reference? The closest you will get is Genesis 28, but again, Jacob was promising to "tithe" whatever God would give him in the future, not his riches. Many people find Jacob's vow fulfilled in his offspring tithing off the land once they entered into the gift of God, the promised land.

Abraham's tithe was of spoils of war, not of riches. Besides that, Abraham ended up giving all of the spoils away, not merely the tenth.

The Levitical tithe was produce and livestock of the Holy Land. Carpenters didn't tithe, metal workers didn't tithe, and tentmakers didn't tithe.

I don't oppose tithing because I'm stingy or unwilling to give...I've tithed for years. I'm just sick of lies.