Hell and Luke 6

[Tooktheredpill]

(02-13-2012 10:48 AM)FmrMarine Wrote:  Yes. God was so mad at the humans he made that he had to become one so he could sacrifice himself to himself.

Please stick to the topic. Thanks.

[Darrell]

(02-12-2012 01:19 PM)NotUnderLaw Wrote:  I don't think the entire Bible has to be true at all points in time. (I'm not saying it contains falsehoods, but I mean to say that what was true in the past may not be anymore).

Darrell, you said "God is angry with the wicked every day". That was true, prior to the cross. Now, He has reconciled the world to Himself, the worlds sins are propitiated (His anger satisfied) and the wicked (and righteous by faith) can approach Him without fear. Not really related to hell I know, but I don't think all verses need to be true at all times.

I'm not sure that God is now reconciled with the whole world. Otherwise II Corinthians 5:20 doesn't make a lot of sense:

"Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God."

If the whole world was already reconciled to God then why are we pleading with people to be reconciled? There's a whole lot of N.T. Scripture that speaks to people who are in no way reconciled.

But let's not lose focus on the original question here. God does not change although his disposition towards individuals or his methods in dealing with them might. After all, immutability is one of his attributes. So if God was angry with the wicked back in the OT (even if he isn't now) he was no less Love back then too. Love is not the opposite of Anger.

My point here is simply this: I can love someone and be angry with them at the same time. I can love them and punish them. I can love them and have it tear me up inside that their choices are forcing me to separate myself from them. I can do all that and I'm just a mere human. God is much more complex than I am and his disposition is much more complex as well.

I don't really see any difficulty in believing that God is both merciful and loving and holy and angry and just and kind and fearful and terrible. He's God. His ways are not our ways.

[NotUnderLaw]

But it says it in the verse directly before - God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself.... be reconciled to God. So there is a reconciliation for the world, in that everyone can approach Him without fear, because His wrath is satisfied, but the emphasis is on individuals to now approach Him in faith and hope.

I see a difference between attributes of God and what God is. God IS Love. He is not anger. He is not justice. Those are attributes, but He Himself IS love.

[exOBCstudent]

Have any of you read this book about the subject?
THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE
Doctrine of Endless Punishment
BY THOMAS B. THAYER

Quotes:
"This little work is written for the purpose of furnishing a sketch of the argument by which it is shown that the doctrine of Endless Punishment is not of divine origin, but traceable directly to a heathen source."

"The subject treated is one of very great importance, and equally concerns the purity of Christian doctrine, and the happiness and virtue of those believing. It is every day commanding more and more attention from serious and thoughtful minds. And on all sides, and in the churches of all sects, there is increased inquiry into the foundations of the doctrine, and rapidly growing doubts of its divine origin and authority. It is possible the following pages may help to answer some of the questions growing out of this state of mind, and to show how a doctrine, thoroughly heathen in origin and character, came to be adopted by the Christian church."

I haven't read the entire book, but it's basically presenting that "Hell" as taught by the IFB and many other Christian-type religions was a doctrine invented and inserted into the bible to establish control over people by using it as a threat to motivate desired actions.

Interesting thoughts indeed. The book is like 130 pages so lots of history in there.

[C_Fresh]

I've always taken it as a two part process in that reconciliation takes action on the part of both parties. God reconciled himself to man through Christ and man must individually reconcile himself to God through Christ. Sort of like offering a hand to someone doesn't do them any good unless they take it. Probably overly simplistic but thats how it makes sense to me.

[NotUnderLaw]

I tend towards Annihilation rather than ECT. I don't see much support for Universalism. I can find maybe one verse which specifically says tormented forever and ever, somewhere in Revelation (can't remember the verse, but it's the one everyone pulls up as proof) but there is a condition applied - it is specifically those who take the mark of the beast. Also, they are tormented before the throne day and night for eternity (not in a lake of fire). What a way for God to be glorified forever and ever. Almost every other verse mentions destruction, destroyed, and those verses that mention everlasting punishment - well, people always fail to consider that annihilation is also an eternal punishment. There is no coming back from it. That's just me. I'm not set in stone about it and I wouldn't really argue for or against.

As for Luke 6, well, I still hold to that old baptist view that Hell (Hades/Sheol) and the Lake of Fire are two different places. Considering that Hell is cast into the Lake of Fire in Revelation, I can't see how they are the same. Also, where is God in Luke 6. Only Abraham is floating around, and people are in Abraham (children of promise I assume). Also, why is Hell a stones throw from "Heaven". It's either a parable, or if it isn't, it certainly isn't representing what Heaven is going to be like, or the Lake of Fire.

[C_Fresh]

(02-13-2012 02:43 PM)NotUnderLaw Wrote:  I tend towards Annihilation rather than ECT. I don't see much support for Universalism. I can find maybe one verse which specifically says tormented forever and ever, somewhere in Revelation (can't remember the verse, but it's the one everyone pulls up as proof) but there is a condition applied - it is specifically those who take the mark of the beast. Also, they are tormented before the throne day and night for eternity (not in a lake of fire). What a way for God to be glorified forever and ever. Almost every other verse mentions destruction, destroyed, and those verses that mention everlasting punishment - well, people always fail to consider that annihilation is also an eternal punishment. There is no coming back from it. That's just me. I'm not set in stone about it and I wouldn't really argue for or against.

As for Luke 6, well, I still hold to that old baptist view that Hell (Hades/Sheol) and the Lake of Fire are two different places. Considering that Hell is cast into the Lake of Fire in Revelation, I can't see how they are the same. Also, where is God in Luke 6. Only Abraham is floating around, and people are in Abraham (children of promise I assume). Also, why is Hell a stones throw from "Heaven". It's either a parable, or if it isn't, it certainly isn't representing what Heaven is going to be like, or the Lake of Fire.

I had always heard that Paradise and Hell were both in the 'center of the earth' with a gulf between them. After Christ died, he took the OT saints with him to heaven and hell presumably expanded to use the space previously occupied by Paradise.

[NotUnderLaw]

Yeah, I was taught that too. As for it literally being in the centre of the earth, I'm not sure, and it's one of those Fundy things that people used to use as litmus tests for fellowship and will seperate over (how dumb!). But the concept still stands I think.

[myotch]

The Bible strikes the alliteration between hell and the grave, so its common to think of hell as "inside" the earth.

The fire eternally consumes and the worms won't stop eating. One "descends" to hell while "ascending" to heaven.

Dante didn't help us with a Biblical view of Hell, IMHO. But he did contribute to the perspective of sin.