Are conservative evangelicals really fundamentalists?

[squiz]

Many in this forum define themselves as ex-fundamentalists after having left the IFB cult, and yet hold to authoritative views of the Bible and exclusive views on what it means to be "saved" that are hardly distinguishable from fundamentalism and are basically the cause of the fundamentalist problem, IMO.

This was confusing to me at first, because I had always associated the word fundamentalist with something closer to what you here would generally call "conservative evangelical". In Australia, where I am from, KVJ-only IFBers are virtually unheard of (well I hadn't back then), but there are plenty of conservative evangelicals (although nowhere near as dominant as in the US). These were always considered fundamentalist by others.

Sure, words are only words, but sometimes I get the feeling that people use the "Fundies" (note the capital F) as a foil to emphasise what they are not. Sure I might believe exclusively that my religion is the only truth, but I am not as bad as those crazy Fundies!

Here are a couple of articles that call into question this rigid definition of fundamentalist.

The first is by an ex-IFB minister.
http://fallenfromgrace.net/2011/12/14/ar...the-bible/

He is not really arguing whether evangelicals are fundamentalists, he pretty much assumes it.

Quote:While Evangelicals by definition are fundamentalists they recoil in horror at hard-core fundamentalism.

It is more a discussion of how evangelicals are coming to terms with the challenges to biblical authority these days.

Of special note is the first comment, that says:

Quote:I live in Colorado Springs, Colorado, home to Focus on the Family and many other Evangelical organizations. Back before 9/11 it was pretty common to hear Evangelicals describe themselves as “Fundamentalists”. But I was amused when a within a short time after 9/11, they were all “Evangelicals” and there no longer seemed to be a Fundamentalist in town.

which seems to support my thesis.

Another interesting article from a UK perspective. This article is worth reading in full.
http://www.theologian.org.uk/church/fund...lists.html

So, does the cap fit?

[Darrell]

It's a game of definitions.

If you believe that anybody whoholds "authoritative views of the Bible and exclusive views on what it means to be "saved"" is a fundamentalist then you're basically making "fundamentalist" the same thing as "orthodox."

In that case it just become a pejorative without much real meaning.

[pastor's wife]

If "fundamentalist" meant what it supposed originally meant, yes, I am a fundamentalist - I believe that Jesus' death and resurrection is the only way to be made right with God. Your point that conservative evangelicals teach this same message is partly why some of us are so upset that we were lied to for so long, that we were told anyone outside of our circles denied the basics of the faith, which wasn't true at all.

Words do change over time. In Christian circles in America, fundamentalism has come to mean certain specific things. I call myself ex-IFB because no one in the IFB would fellowship with me anymore, simply because of my music, Bible version, clothing, charity work, desire to adapt to the culture, and associations. Even one point alone - the fact that I no longer think it is a sin to have a drink of alcohol - would cause them to disbar me from membership in their churches and question my salvation. Thus it is foolish to continue calling myself by a name when those who proudly embrace that name reject and separate from me.

[Tonx]

I can only tell you my experience: I come from a conservative evangelical background and it left me very scarred. I found it to be a very toxic environment and it f*cked me up permanently. Whether or not it can be classified as "fundy," I don't care. The outcome was the same.

[IFB No More]

Here is a re-post of one of my previous posts. I would say most conservative evangelicals DO fall under Group #1, which is why they are called "fundamentalists" outside the Evangelical (and even within) community.

Group #1: Common things all fundamentalists (both moderate fundamentalist or hardline) share.
Under this category, all "fundamentalists" and a significant portion of evangelicals (maybe like 30%-40%?) fall into this category.
- An affirmation of the historic Christian teachings as stated in the Ecumenical Creeds. Examples of teachings - virgin birth, Christ is both God and man, literal resurrection of Christ.
- A more literal interpretation of Scripture. (This includes support for 6-day or even young-earth literal creationism)
- A strong commitment to the teaching of biblical inerrancy - that the Bible is not just the inspired word of God, it is totally without error word-for-word and has no contradictions whatsoever.
- Strongly hostile to any other Christian movements that oppose the traditional Protestant teaching on justification: Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodoxy, liberal Christianity and so on, to the extent of labeling these followers as heathens or targets of evangelism. A non-fundamentalist Protestant can and will critique Catholicism etc. but will not go so far as fundamentalists do, who say Catholics/Orthodox does not teach the gospel and actively go out to evangelize them.
- A general disdain for liturgy, rituals or clergy titles and vestments during worship and a preference for simpler forms of worship with primary focus on the sermon (the preaching of the Word).
- Heavy emphasis on personal morality (don't drink, don't dance, don't watch the movies) and piety (devotions/prayer meetings), to the point of being over-picky at times, and more focus on personal evangelism and missions. General opposed to church-based social services or welfare - if they have them it is usually to help other Christians or church members only, or come with a very strong evangelistic tint to the extent of being pushy, if towards non-believers.
- Support for socially conservative politics, and implicit opposition to many forms of modern culture. (e.g. supports the "right" side in the Culture War)

Group #2: Fundamentalist hardliners support some or all of these. By the way, most people may acknowledge these views as marks of a cult:
Under this category, many hardline fundamentalist churches - not just restricted to IFBs - will be included here.
- Stringent views on separation - will not just separate from Catholics/Orthodox or liberals, but even from evangelicals who do not separate (secondary/tertiary separation). The ultra-hardliners separate over even the least doctrine (e.g. KJV usage, Calvinism/Non-Calvinism). In other words, hardliners do not believe that there are "major" or "minor" doctrines - every doctrinal or spiritual issue is worth fighting battle-royale over. A litmus test whether the church believes this is whether they approve of a member transferring to another evangelical/fundamentalist church of different doctrine.
- Micro-management of church members' lives via rules and regulations (no dating, must seek permission from pastor to do things, sign agreements never to drink alcohol and so on).
- Discouragement of relationships or involvement outside the church except for evangelism - to bring them into the fold (holy huddle).
- Explicit opposition to modern culture (e.g. computer games are evil, rock music is satanic, tattoos is evil, courtship-only-no-dating and so on)

[GraceThruFaith]

(02-10-2012 12:46 PM)Tonx Wrote:  I can only tell you my experience: I come from a conservative evangelical background and it left me very scarred. I found it to be a very toxic environment and it f*cked me up permanently. Whether or not it can be classified as "fundy," I don't care. The outcome was the same.

CE's and Fundies are vehemently anti-gay and openly condemn homosexuals everywhere - out loud, on Facebook, in government legislation, etc.

You can view something as a sin yet not hold it against a person. That's what love is, but a majority of CE's and Fundies don't do that.

[greg]

I have never heard of James Dobson or Focus on the Famly referring to themselves as "fundamentalists" before or after 9/11. I'm sure if they have, someone will post it.

In the fundy circles I travelled in, James Dobson was just about as reviled as the Pope, and I don't think my fundy experience was nearly as fundy as some of the folks that post here.

It was wonderful ministries like "Focus on the Family" and " and Chuck Swindoll's "Insight for Living" that kept me from drinking the last bit of fundy kool-aid and heading to Jonestown. I would have to hold my nose when reading their materials/books because they used those "vile" and "worldly" bible perversions, but I could not deny their solid biblical teaching, which caused me to question the whole KJV issue, and a host of others, that ultimately led me out of that mess.

I credit Chuck Swindoll's book "The Grace Awakening" as a critical component in helping me out of mess of the IFB.

[laurat99]

Maybe I'm over simplifying this, but I see Fundamentalists as people who try to apply their rules/standards/way of life to everyone and if you aren't doing exactly like they are you are wrong, while Conservative Christians live by their rules/standards/way of life and accept that others will live differently and don't condemn them for it.

[pastor's wife]

I guess for me, telling me as an evangelical that I'm no different than a fundamentalist would be like me telling a Mennonite that he's no different from the Amish -- "You guys all look old-fashioned. What's the difference?" -- when in reality, there are differences that can make a significant impact on how he lives his day to day life and that could cause his relatives to reject and castigate him if he chooses a position different from the one in which he was raised.

To an outsider, the groups may seem virtually identical and the differences meaningless; to an insider, the groups are significantly different.

I would never tell a Mennonite, "You might as well be Amish!" and I actually don't like being told that because I'm a conservative evangelical, I might as well be a fundamentalist. Tell that to the all the members who left our church when we left the IFB, causing us significant financial loss, or to the parents of my children's best friends, who immediately cut off all contact with us and blocked us on facebook, or to my fundamentalist parents who wrote me out of their will and will never enter the doors of our church building, not even to see their grandchildren in a program.

If someone tells me that I'm no different than a fundamentalist, it makes me feel as if that person is discounting all the heartbreak and loss we experienced, saying it's meaningless, as if my experience is invalid because I didn't end up in the same place someone else did.

[Recovering]

I think that IFB No More has it right, though I would imagine that it is generally more of a spectrum. Fundamentalism falls within the group known as conservative evangelicalism, though most evangelicals would not want to be labeled as fundamentalist. Even when we talk about groups that proudly bear the f-label, we describe them as more or less fundamentalist. I think there are some evangelicals who, though they would hold the same creeds, are very unlike self-described fundamentalists. Then there are others, like Liberty University, for instance, which has dropped the title and some of the standards but maintains some of the problematic attitudes.

My husband's family is fairly influential within certain evangelical circles, and while they are very tolerant of our conversion to Roman Catholicism, some of their friends are not. In my experience, while most conservative evangelicals are just as uncomfortable with Roman Catholicism as the fundies are, they aren't quite as sure why. My fundamentalist family can tell you Thirteen Reasons All Catholics Go To Hell®, but those evangelical friends who are wary of our choices tend to be more quietly wary about it. :-) This is just my experience; I'm not assuming all evangelicals are this way.