She-bears and the IFB pastor

[greg]

Jeremy - You said

1) You don't think any were killed?
A. No, the narrative says they were mauled. I don't want to break out Webster's on ya, but I checked several definitions, and like I posted, mauling could be a scratch or life-threatening, but never death, mauling or to maul, never means death.

2) Yours is way out there.
A. Where? Why? How? Don't leave me hanging.

3) Intentions of she-bears?
A. Alright, it's getting wacky out here. I'll simply say that I see nothing that speaks to the "intentions" of these bears in the narrative.

4) And then there's denial
A. Denial of what - I'm getting lost here!

5) You just interpreted the passage the same way fundies do.
A. I thought the fundies preached this as if the preacher was Elisha and to be careful what you say about God's man or the boogeym.....er....she-bears would get ya. I haven't even hinted at such a silly thing.

[myotch]

(02-12-2012 07:38 PM)Jeremy Wrote:  Right. There are age-appropriate rules in place with kids.

What about species-appropriate, nature-appropriate rules, especially from the arbiter of said rules?

Quote:Analogous to how God has certain responsibilities and powers as the Ruler of the Universe that are not available to us. I get that.

I have no doubt on an intellectual level, you "get it". You don't seem to understand, in the cosmic sense, the scale or scope of your statement.

Quote:However, he is still subject to basic right and wrong because he created right and wrong as a manifestation of his nature.

You are comparing God to man rather than contrasting God's nature and will vs. man's nature and will.

We've covered the fatherly aspect of God. Let's talk about the governing aspect of God.

Our government tells us not to kill others by having laws against murder and homicide. Yet, the state government can execute a murderer. The state clearly has the power and authority that the governed does not. it is not hypocritical that a state can end a life legally where you and I cannot.

The IRS can do things that would be outright extortion if you and I did it. The IRS is not organized crime. Congress can pass laws that effect every living citizen except Congressmen. Yet, Congress is not hypocritical when they do. (Social Security withholding, for instance, affects just about every working citizen, yet members of Congress do not pay into Social Security).

Quote:So if he went against his nature he would be contradicting himself.

Cosmic governance and Abba-Father are two aspects of God that shows if God seemingly breaks a rule he sets for man, as a Father may do when running his household in regards to rules for children, or members of Congress do when making rules for themselves as well as for citizens, shows that the supposed contradiction is not so readily apparent.

Quote:The commandment, even in the OT, is "be holy as I am holy," vice "do as I say, not as I do." So just because God has all power and sovereignty doesn't mean he can go off on a whim and do whatever fallen human beings would feel like doing were we in his shoes. Nor does it mean that we can't hold up standards of right and wrong to actions attributed to God, as a test of whether they REALLY come from God or not.

God does God's will. God's will for how humans interact with each other and with Him does not necessarily dictate God's hand when He interacts with man. What you would call a "whim" could be the logic of the celestial, logic of the Deity that you don't have to readily understand.

Quote:If we worshipped a god who followed his whims regardless of right and wrong we would be worshipping a pagan deity for no other real reason than to accrue good fortune as a result of pious acts.

I guess that's one way to look at it. Another way is that if God is good, if God is just, if God is holy and perfect, and He is the arbiter of right and wrong, then what God commands of us is perfect, right, and just, and what He does is perfect, right, and just. There is no contradiction, even if, and especially even when, God does stuff He'd rather us not do.

Consider that you are talking about the Creator and the creation. The difference is to vast to compare to each other.

[lucrezaborgia]

(02-12-2012 08:55 PM)pastors wife Wrote:  If you are a pastor because of issues of authority, power, and control, you will seek to crush any challenge to your rule. You will use fear, manipulation, and intimidation to keep anyone from questioning you.

If you are a pastor who serves (the way Jesus both commanded and modeled), you don't need to threaten people.

It sounds to me like this passage is used as a thought-stopper. I'm having difficulty finding a reliable site to explain this idea, so my general explanation and terminology might be off.

Thought-stoppers are words or phrases that people and organizations in control toss out in order to short-circuit the thought processes of their followers in order to keep them from thinking for themselves.

[Sharon]

(02-13-2012 05:33 PM)lucrezaborgia Wrote:  

(02-12-2012 08:55 PM)pastors wife Wrote:  If you are a pastor because of issues of authority, power, and control, you will seek to crush any challenge to your rule. You will use fear, manipulation, and intimidation to keep anyone from questioning you.

If you are a pastor who serves (the way Jesus both commanded and modeled), you don't need to threaten people.

It sounds to me like this passage is used as a thought-stopper. I'm having difficulty finding a reliable site to explain this idea, so my general explanation and terminology might be off.

Thought-stoppers are words or phrases that people and organizations in control toss out in order to short-circuit the thought processes of their followers in order to keep them from thinking for themselves.

Steve Hassan's freedomofmind.com has thought-stopping as part of the BITE model. (If people ask me for a citation on any "cult" definitions, that's where I go. I read his Combating Cult Mind Control and was able to repair a lot of my rational processes.)

the T in BITE stands for Thought Control, and thought-stopping is one of the methods listed.

Quote: 4. Thought-stopping techniques (to shut down “reality testing”
by stopping “negative” thoughts and allowing only “good”
thoughts); rejection of rational analysis, critical thinking, constructive
criticism.

a. Denial, rationalization, justification, wishful thinking
b. Chanting
c. Meditating
d. Praying
e. Speaking in “tongues”
f. Singing or humming

http://freedomofmind.com/Info/BITE/bitemodel.php

[Shoes]

Quote: 4. Thought-stopping techniques (to shut down “reality testing”
by stopping “negative” thoughts and allowing only “good”
thoughts)

a. Denial, rationalization, justification, wishful thinking
b. Chanting
c. Meditating
d. Praying
e. Speaking in “tongues”
f. Singing or humming

Knives can kill [see: stabbing] or knives can heal [see: scalpel]
the above list has helped some people or items on the list *could* be a means to control
If the author is saying these things *could* be thought-stoppers …. duhhh
eating, reading, watching TV, listening to the radio, exercise: all *possible* thought stoppers as well

if stretched far enough, almost anything could be put on this list. What is the point of it?

[Sharon]

(02-16-2012 08:26 AM)Shoes Wrote:  

Quote: 4. Thought-stopping techniques (to shut down “reality testing”
by stopping “negative” thoughts and allowing only “good”
thoughts)

a. Denial, rationalization, justification, wishful thinking
b. Chanting
c. Meditating
d. Praying
e. Speaking in “tongues”
f. Singing or humming

Knives can kill [see: stabbing] or knives can heal [see: scalpel]
the above list has helped some people or items on the list *could* be a means to control
If the author is saying these things *could* be thought-stoppers …. duhhh
eating, reading, watching TV, listening to the radio, exercise: all *possible* thought stoppers as well

if stretched far enough, almost anything could be put on this list. What is the point of it?

The point of the list is to help one evaluate religious or other groups that require, expect or push these items on the list to excess. It's also only one example of "thought control."

Steve Hassan's a former Moonie who became a licensed mental health counselor and exit counselor focused on destructive mind control groups.