Age of Accountability and Children Getting Saved

[captain_solo]

(02-01-2011 04:41 PM)chris1000bc Wrote:  

(02-01-2011 10:00 AM)captain_solo Wrote:  ... it seems like it is a pattern in the NT, but Acts is such a mess that its hard to draw practice from it perfectly.

I am not sure Saint Luke would appreciate your view of his writing style.

I wasn't getting on his style, as Luke is obviously one of the most literate writers in the NT, but the fact that especially when it comes to baptism, it seems to have been done so many different ways in Acts. We see Spirit baptism accompanying belief, we see it after belief and only happening when the apostles were present to witness it, and we see the apostles asking for it to come upon them. And of course we could look at the fact that the Spirit didn't appear upon the apostles until pentecost, even though they obviously believed. Acts is not a great place to draw practice from because its transitional. This should work both ways, but some folks only look at the passages that support their viewpoint. After all, that particular method of Bible study is stuff fundies like!

[captain_solo]

(02-01-2011 11:57 AM)elfdream Wrote:  

Quote:@Elfdream

I was wondering. I have heard that Catholics believe there is no salvation outside of their church. Have you heard that view yourself? Do you personally hold that view? Like I was telling LutheranEmily before, not trying to pick on you. I am sincerely curious about it.

That's ok. Pick away. I'll do my best.

No I do not hold to that. The following is from an article from Vatican II...keeping in mind that we are all saved by the Grace of God.

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their consciences—those too may achieve eternal salvation (LG 16).

Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery (Gaudium et Spes 22).

Quote:There are so many baptisms referenced in the scripture, its really not as cut and dried as all that. Baptists, Lutherans, and Catholics all ignore scriptures that don't completely align with their traditional teaching on the subject.

What scriptures are you referring to? I do my best to not ignore any of it.

Ignore might be a strong word, how about "explain away" - sometimes legitimate sometimes not. Here's a sampling of what I mean about how confusing it actually is.

Quote:I Peter 3:21 “Baptism, which is like that water, now saves you. Baptism doesn't save by removing dirt from the body. Rather, baptism is a request to God for a clear conscience. It saves you through Jesus Christ, who came back from death to life.”

Quote: Acts 2:37-41 “When the people heard this, they were deeply upset. They asked Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what should we do?" Peter answered them, "All of you must turn to God and change the way you think and act, and each of you must be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins will be forgiven. Then you will receive the Holy Spirit as a gift. This promise belongs to you and to your children and to everyone who is far away. It belongs to everyone who worships the Lord our God." Peter said much more to warn them. He urged, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." Those who accepted what Peter said were baptized. That day about 3,000 people were added to the group. ”

Quote:Acts 10:43-48 “In addition, all the prophets testify that people who believe in the one named Jesus receive forgiveness for their sins through him." While Peter was still speaking, the Holy Spirit came to everyone who heard his message. All the believers who were circumcised and who had come with Peter were amazed that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured on people who were not Jewish. They heard these non-Jewish people speaking in other languages and praising God. Then Peter said, "No one can refuse to baptize these people with water. They have received the Holy Spirit in the same way that we did." So Peter ordered that they should be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for several days.”

And in both Acts 9 and Acts 18 we see people baptized immediately after they accept Christ.

It takes some pretty deep systematic study to come to conclusions on these things, which is why different churches are basically following traditional viewpoints. There really is not definitive biblical position that can be completely fleshed out. Basically we can explain why we do what we do, with pretty solid biblical footing, but the views are so close that it is tough to really prove the negative.

Plus there are differences even among all the various groups, I have met Lutherans who believe in baptismal regeneration as well as those who don't and view infant baptism as analogous to a baby dedication. Even the catholic church has scholars who differ. And obviously Baptists and other non-denoms have as many opinions as their are people. Of course all this is good because it keeps the anti-christ within the Catholic church and out of the rest of our hair for now.

[chris1000bc]

@captain_solo


I agree with you about Acts and how some people ignore texts that do not seem to support their point of view. I try not to do that, but we all have blind spots.

[captain_solo]

(02-01-2011 05:18 PM)chris1000bc Wrote:  @captain_solo


I agree with you about Acts and how some people ignore texts that do not seem to support their point of view. I try not to do that, but we all have blind spots.

Speak for yourself. I am the paragon of objectivity!

[supernova8610]

(02-01-2011 04:21 PM)Darrell Wrote:  I always find it helpful to find out about beliefs from the people who believe them instead of a biased third-hand rendition.

I completely agree. I tried explaining this to a couple IFBx friends a few years ago; I said it's good to learn as much as possible about someone else's beliefs, and about why they believe what they do (that way it's easier to relate when talking to them)... but my IFBx friends just got mad at me.

[elfdream]

Thanks to everyone for your collective objectivity.

[chris1000bc]

@captain_solo

Well, I am glad you are around then. You can help keep the rest of us straight. Lucky us.

[LutheranEmily]

Chris
I think the Lutherans and Catholics just try not to seperate faith from baptism. There is no need to drive a wedge. If you have faith, there is no reason you would despise baptism for what scripture says it is for.

Lutherans also believe that God is not bound to baptism. (thief on the cross is the example that always comes up) But for the purposes of making disciplles, baptism is always the normal beginning for the christian. Its one thing to not have baptism available to you. Its another to argue against what scripture says it does.

[chris1000bc]

@LutheranEmily


After your first sentence, I don't think you said anything that the average Baptist would disagree with. We would disagree on "what scripture says it is for" and "what scripture says it does." But a Baptist could say most of what you said, and no one in his or her congregation would fault him or her.

I went to a Presbyterian church in New York on vacation this past year. They baptized by sprinkling several people. It was a nice service, and they did emphasize the importance of baptism.

[LutheranEmily]

Well..
what does scripture say it is for?