Age of Accountability and Children Getting Saved

[elfdream]

The Lutheran and the Catholic are in agreement on this one.

This link speaks specifically to the objections to infant baptism made by fundamentalists.

Its historical. The early Christians practiced it.

Its what I believe but I understand completely why many here do not accept it.

http://www.catholic.com/library/Infant_Baptism.asp

[chris1000bc]

@LutheranEmily,

Thanks for explaining your view. I listened to 30 minutes of the podcast. It was interesting, but I can't be sold on that. Thanks for the information though. Of course, with your view (if I understand it correctly), I don't have to be sold on it as long as I am baptized? Is that correct or am I misunderstanding your view?


@Elfdream

I was wondering. I have heard that Catholics believe there is no salvation outside of their church. Have you heard that view yourself? Do you personally hold that view? Like I was telling LutheranEmily before, not trying to pick on you. I am sincerely curious about it.

[LutheranEmily]

No. You have to have real faith. People reject their baptisms. They cut themselves off from the branch.

You don't have to be sold on it, but I would keep reading the scriptures on baptism. Watch the other video too. It catalogs all of the baptism scriptures. Scripture is very very clear on the matter. It is hard to believe that God would use a means, but I would remind everyone of the bronze serpent. People were getting bitten by snakes and dying and God told Moses to fashion a snake and when people looked at the snake, they would be healed. they actually had to make this snake out of material, and they actually had to look upon it to receive their healing. It is very similar to baptism. The promise of salvation is right there. It is sacramental because it is not plain water that is doing the saving. It is the word of God attatched to the water. He tells us to use water. That is why it is sacramental.

You really do not need a podcast to be convinced. All you really need is scripture and a willingness to read it plainly. If you lose the baptist preconceived notion that baptism is something other than what scripture says, then you can see what scripture is saying and it says to wash away your sins with baptism.

[captain_solo]

(02-01-2011 09:46 AM)LutheranEmily Wrote:  No. You have to have real faith. People reject their baptisms. They cut themselves off from the branch.

You don't have to be sold on it, but I would keep reading the scriptures on baptism. Watch the other video too. It catalogs all of the baptism scriptures. Scripture is very very clear on the matter. It is hard to believe that God would use a means, but I would remind everyone of the bronze serpent. People were getting bitten by snakes and dying and God told Moses to fashion a snake and when people looked at the snake, they would be healed. they actually had to make this snake out of material, and they actually had to look upon it to receive their healing. It is very similar to baptism. The promise of salvation is right there. It is sacramental because it is not plain water that is doing the saving. It is the word of God attatched to the water. He tells us to use water. That is why it is sacramental.

You really do not need a podcast to be convinced. All you really need is scripture and a willingness to read it plainly. If you lose the baptist preconceived notion that baptism is something other than what scripture says, then you can see what scripture is saying and it says to wash away your sins with baptism.

There are so many baptisms referenced in the scripture, its really not as cut and dried as all that. Baptists, Lutherans, and Catholics all ignore scriptures that don't completely align with their traditional teaching on the subject.

There is clearly both physical and spiritual baptism, and the categorizing of various passages into which one they are describing is where the rubber meets the road on this one. Most likely none of us have it completely right. I am more on the side of anyone who has had a trinitarian Baptism should be considered baptized, and I am not really sure what to do about re-baptism after conversion, it seems like it is a pattern in the NT, but Acts is such a mess that its hard to draw practice from it perfectly.

For example, I would have no problem accepting the paedobaptism of a Lutheran, especially if they continued on and were confirmed, because that is basically the same pattern spiritually as Baptists who baptize children after they have been saved and demonstrated their conversion through growth. I really have a problem with baptizing just about anyone immediately after salvation, even though again its a pattern in the NT. If you really think its for genuine believers than wouldn't you want them to be sure and stable on their own before you encourage them to take the outward step demonstrating their inward condition?

See, I am very confused by all this. All the competing viewpoints have biblical merit, so I am unconvinced that we should be so dogmatic on this one.

[LutheranEmily]

You can baptize an unbeliever. You can baptize anybody. You don't have to make sure they truly believe. In fact, you cannot. I know so many people who have been baptized over and over again. (myself 3 times!!)

Scripture says that those who believe and are baptized will be saved, but those who do not believe are condemned already.

I see it this way.. if an unbeliever is baptized, it does not make him saved.
However, for believers, we are told to be baptized for the remission of sins, and these passages are clearly talking about baptism with water. Washing with the water and the word. It is clear. But since you cannot prove who is a true believer, infant or adult, we should not withhold baptism from those who desire it.

I know in the Catholic and Lutheran churches they make adults take classes so that they know what they are getting into. I see the wisdom in that, but I also see the wisdom in being baptized as soon as possible. My kids didn't take a class. They were 6, 5, 3, and 1 when they were baptized. (just about a year ago actually). My Pastor explained to them what it was for and they all wanted it. Very simple.

We have baptist cousins who of course weren't allowed to come to the baptism celebration. (I completely understand why, even though it stinks. My kids wanted to see their cousins) and my oldest asked why. I told him that baptists didn't believe that kids could believe.. or something like that. (the idea of a child getting saved is so completely uber confusing to me! Its why I started changing my mind about baptism in the first place. It seemed ridiculous to me that my child who obviously believed needed to get saved. They don't hold up child-like faith in the scriptures for no reason)

Well, my 6 year old at the time agreed with me. "Of course kids can believe in Jesus".

My kids will be assumed to be saved unless they reject their faith one day.

For now, we will just continue making disciples out of them, educating them, catechizing them, loving them, and taking them to church. They are believers. I believe this is the right way. The other way is just confusing.

The unbelievers being baptized are the exception. There is no way to know the heart of the person being baptized. The most moral person in the world can still be an unbeliever. It is not our job to make sure. It is just our job to baptize and teach. At the end, Christ will seperate the sheep from the goats.

[elfdream]

Quote:@Elfdream

I was wondering. I have heard that Catholics believe there is no salvation outside of their church. Have you heard that view yourself? Do you personally hold that view? Like I was telling LutheranEmily before, not trying to pick on you. I am sincerely curious about it.

That's ok. Pick away. I'll do my best.

No I do not hold to that. The following is from an article from Vatican II...keeping in mind that we are all saved by the Grace of God.

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their consciences—those too may achieve eternal salvation (LG 16).

Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery (Gaudium et Spes 22).

Quote:There are so many baptisms referenced in the scripture, its really not as cut and dried as all that. Baptists, Lutherans, and Catholics all ignore scriptures that don't completely align with their traditional teaching on the subject.

What scriptures are you referring to? I do my best to not ignore any of it.

[chris1000bc]

@LutheranEmily,

Thanks for your response. When I read texts regarding baptism, I try to understand them with the rest of the Bible's teaching regarding salvation (the same way I am sure you do). Still, I come to a different conclusion than you which I guess would be normal for a Lutheran and a Baptist. Also, I think things like this would be more interesting to discuss in person. At college, a few friends and I discussed things we disagreed about at Starbucks every so often. That kind of discussion really challenges your views and helps you clarify your viewpoint.


@elfdream,

I appreciate your response. It's nice to hear from a Catholic what they believe instead of from someone else. I would disagree with that statement from Vatican II. I do not think there is any salvation outside of Christ, and I do not think you can receive that salvation from Christ without knowing who He is. I do agree that it is God's grace that brings anyone to Christ though.

[Perry]

Thanks everyone for your input! This baptism discussion is very interesting, too! It's good to hear what others believe in a way other than listening to a fundy preacher's biased opinion on it.

[Darrell]

I always find it helpful to find out about beliefs from the people who believe them instead of a biased third-hand rendition.

[chris1000bc]

(02-01-2011 10:00 AM)captain_solo Wrote:  ... it seems like it is a pattern in the NT, but Acts is such a mess that its hard to draw practice from it perfectly.

I am not sure Saint Luke would appreciate your view of his writing style.