Two Natures

[Tony R]

(01-27-2011 07:43 PM)LutheranJennifer Wrote:  What happens if you're born again and your sin nature is taken away... and then you sin. Wouldn't that re-corrupt you? Wouldn't that make your new nature a sinful nature once again.

No it wouldn't because the new nature is divine. It is the nature of Christ. It is incorruptible (1 Peter 1:23).

(01-27-2011 07:43 PM)LutheranJennifer Wrote:  You can't NEVER sin. Don't misunderstand me though! You have been reborn and you have a God's Spirit dwelling in you so you can resist the devil and your own temptations. But you will not have a perfect record in this life. Sanctification begins, but it doesn't end in this body and life.

Sanctification? It is a done deal. "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." I Cor 6:11

(01-27-2011 07:43 PM)LutheranJennifer Wrote:  Romans 7 my friend. Paul wrestled with this just as we do.

Paul wrestled with his flesh, just as we do.

[LutheranJennifer]

Well, I've been a believer for 22 years and I've never heard that perspective before. That's a new one on me.

In 7:6 he talks about our current condition of being released from the law.
In 7:15 he says he does what he doesn't want to do. If he were unregenerate he wouldn't "like" to obey God because he'd be hostile toward God and His Law. Galatians 5:17 comes to mind.
In 7:15 he says that sin dwells in him "now".
in 7:18 he says that nothing good dwells in his flesh (sarx) but that the willing (i.e. the spirit is willing - he's born again) is present.
In 7:19 he claims he wants to do "good" and practices evil that he does "not want". Again, this is consistent with faith, not the inclination of an unregenerate person. Again, Galatians 5:17 comes to mind.
7:25 pretty much sums it up that he's got both sinful desires and godly desires jockeying for position.

Gal 5:17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.

I just don't see this the same way as you. I'm not sure how to continue this conversation. I'm waiting for an answer to my question from post #18 in this thread. That seems like a better starting point for continued discussion.

As for sanctification, we are truly "set apart", but not yet completely "pure" in motivation or action. There is more yet more to come.

[LutheranEmily]

Obviously, I'm with LutheranJennifer.

[Tony R]

(01-27-2011 08:43 PM)LutheranJennifer Wrote:  I guess I don't really understand what you are getting at... or what difference it makes. Adam and Eve were created in the image and likeness of God. Adam sinned and the image was lost and creation was corrupted. All the rest of humanity was born with original/inherited sin. At rebirth original sin is removed and the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us, but we still sin so we're still sinners. We become justified sinners - God sees us as upright on account of Christ. We are simultaneously sinners and saints.

Which part are you objecting to?

I do not object to anything that you said here (Post #18) other than “We are simultaneously sinners and saints.” The word of God does not support that particular idea.
I apologize if I did not clearly state my thoughts in my original post. My point is this… If we do retain our sin nature after conversion (as many of have been taught), then we are, at our very core (our nature) sinners and therefore we must sin. Under this teaching, there can be no freedom from the power of sin. Under this teaching we remain slaves to sin after conversion. I believe that this teaching is unbiblical. I believe the Bible teaches us that, at conversion, our Old Man (our sin nature) is crucified with Christ. It is dead. Not renewed, not remade, not refurbished, but put to death. If my belief is correct, then we are indeed freed from sin, slaves to righteousness. If I tell a believer that they are, at their core, a sinner then I am telling that they will inevitably sin (they can’t help it). I am telling them they are not free from sin in Christ. Do we sin after conversion? Yes. When we do anything in our flesh, it will most likely lead to sin. But, our flesh is not our nature. Our new nature is divine.

I don’t know how to say it any differently without repeating what I have already said in previous posts.

[exIFB]

Quote:In 7:15 he says he does what he doesn't want to do. If he were unregenerate he wouldn't "like" to obey God because he'd be hostile toward God and His Law. Galatians 5:17 comes to mind.
In 7:15 he says that sin dwells in him "now".
in 7:18 he says that nothing good dwells in his flesh (sarx) but that the willing (i.e. the spirit is willing - he's born again) is present.
In 7:19 he claims he wants to do "good" and practices evil that he does "not want". Again, this is consistent with faith, not the inclination of an unregenerate person. Again, Galatians 5:17 comes to mind.

An unsaved/unregenerate person can say all these things too - why do you think there is so much religion in the world? It's because people want to do good, but find no way of doing it. The Jews liked to obey God's law, but they found it a burden.

[LutheranJennifer]

(01-27-2011 09:56 PM)Tony R Wrote:  

(01-27-2011 08:43 PM)LutheranJennifer Wrote:  I guess I don't really understand what you are getting at... or what difference it makes. Adam and Eve were created in the image and likeness of God. Adam sinned and the image was lost and creation was corrupted. All the rest of humanity was born with original/inherited sin. At rebirth original sin is removed and the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us, but we still sin so we're still sinners. We become justified sinners - God sees us as upright on account of Christ. We are simultaneously sinners and saints.

Which part are you objecting to?

I do not object to anything that you said here (Post #18) other than “We are simultaneously sinners and saints.” The word of God does not support that particular idea.
I apologize if I did not clearly state my thoughts in my original post. My point is this… If we do retain our sin nature after conversion (as many of have been taught), then we are, at our very core (our nature) sinners and therefore we must sin. Under this teaching, there can be no freedom from the power of sin. Under this teaching we remain slaves to sin after conversion. I believe that this teaching is unbiblical. I believe the Bible teaches us that, at conversion, our Old Man (our sin nature) is crucified with Christ. It is dead. Not renewed, not remade, not refurbished, but put to death. If my belief is correct, then we are indeed freed from sin, slaves to righteousness. If I tell a believer that they are, at their core, a sinner then I am telling that they will inevitably sin (they can’t help it). I am telling them they are not free from sin in Christ. Do we sin after conversion? Yes. When we do anything in our flesh, it will most likely lead to sin. But, our flesh is not our nature. Our new nature is divine.

I don’t know how to say it any differently without repeating what I have already said in previous posts.

But nowhere in post #18 did I say that we are slaves to sin or that we retain a sinful nature. I just stated that we still sin - meanwhile we are "justified". You are drawing conclusions that I am not asserting.

It sounds like you're saying that flesh is bad/evil. Are you?

[IFB No More]

I agree with St. Augustine's teaching:
Man's original capacities included both the power not to sin and the power to sin ( posse non peccare et posse peccare ). In Adam's original sin, man lost the posse non peccare (the power not to sin) and retained the posse peccare (the power to sin)--which he continues to exercise. In the fulfillment of grace, man will have the posse peccare taken away and receive the highest of all, the power not to be able to sin, non posse peccare.

When we are saved we have the power to sin and not to sin. We will be simulteanously saint and sinner till the day we return to God. Only by continually relying on His grace will we be able to conquer sin.

[Tony R]

(01-27-2011 11:27 PM)LutheranJennifer Wrote:  But nowhere in post #18 did I say that we are slaves to sin or that we retain a sinful nature. I just stated that we still sin - meanwhile we are "justified". You are drawing conclusions that I am not asserting.

Correct. Those are my words. However, you did imply that you believe that we retain a sinful nature in Post #10 when you said, "C - Both" (a reference to the poll).

(01-27-2011 11:27 PM)LutheranJennifer Wrote:  It sounds like you're saying that flesh is bad/evil. Are you?

I agree with the word of God that "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like..." (Galatians 5:19-21).

[Tony R]

I am not saying that the flesh itself is bad/evil, but the works of the flesh are.

[Elijah Craig]

"Already... not yet" is an idea dating back to around 1950 and is a position that most progressive dispensationalists and covenant theologians can agree upon. Most pastors trained in New Evangelical seminaries since the 1960's hold to it. The Kingdom of Christ: The New Evangelical Perspective by Russell Moore is probably the book that details this best from a recent historical standpoint. But it is academic, not easy reading.

The rest of this conversation gives me a headache. Not because I can't understand it but because I think folks are picking at nits. Paul used an analogy of a woman with a new husband. The old husband no longer has the authority to tell her what to do, but she still does it out of habit. She's got a new husband but hasn't quite adjusted to him yet. Already, not yet.