Two Natures

[Tony R]

The teaching that we (Christians) have two natures, the old sin nature and a new holy nature, is not biblical.

Some Christians argue that if one believes that the “Old Man” (our sin nature) is dead (“dead” = gone, obliterated, eradicated, eliminated), that belief will lead to the belief that the Christian will ultimately claim freedom to sin.

I submit just the opposite. I submit that the belief that the “Old Man” (our sin nature) remains alive within the Christian will lead to the belief that the Christian will ultimately claim freedom to sin.

How so? If the Old Man were to remain alive within the Christian, that Christian, by his very nature, is a sinner. He would have no choice but to sin. Sinning is what he does. After all, he is…at his very core, a sinner. THAT’S WHAT SINNERS DO! If the Old Man were to remain alive within the Christian, the only freedom he would have would freedom “from righteousness”! (Romans 6:20)

So, for the Christian, is the “Old Man” dead or alive? What does the Bible say about it? It could not be any clearer in Romans 6:6-7, “Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.”

Romans 6:10-11 says, “For in that he [Christ] died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Christ died unto sin ONCE. In the same way (“likewise”) Christian are to think of themselves (“reckon ye also yourselves”) dead INDEED unto sin.

Does this mean that the Christian will never sin? Of course not. Romans 6:12-13 tells us not to choose to sin. But sin, no longer being the Christian’s nature, is his choice. The Christian is free!

Human beings are creatures of habit and, unfortunately, Christians sometimes behave (contrary to their new nature in Christ) like they did when the “Old Man” was alive. Ephesians 4:22 says, “That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts”. This is an admonition to Christians not to behave like they did (“former conversation”) when the “Old Man” was alive.

Your thoughts?

[FormerFundy]

You're missing the "I have no clue" option...

[LutheranEmily]

We Lutherans go by the idea that we are simultaneously sinner and saint. "Already, and not yet"

While we have the choice to not sin, we also in our bodies have the old nature at work in us, and the two will be fighting until the resurrection. We should feed the new and put to death the old, but anyone who says they do not sin is fooling themselves. Our sinful flesh still sins, though it is no longer us, but sin that that dwells in us.

Romans 7:14
We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

[Tony Mel]

According to the Bible, we still possess the flesh. The flesh, however, has been crucified with Christ and does not dominate our lives. As saints, we do not have to sin. When we do, we are choosing to believe that the law of the flesh will work for our advantage; we choose to believe the principles of the Old, dead man.

Do I call this dead flesh a nature? No. The Bible never does; the NIV translation does the word 'sarx' injustice by translating it 'sinful nature.'

[Tony R]

(01-27-2011 10:07 AM)LutheranEmily Wrote:  While we have the choice to not sin, we also in our bodies have the old nature at work in us, and the two will be fighting until the resurrection. We should feed the new and put to death the old, but anyone who says they do not sin is fooling themselves. Our sinful flesh still sins, though it is no longer us, but sin that that dwells in us.

The only problem with the idea of two natures fighting and us feeding one rather than the other is the fact that one of the natures is dead! "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him" (Romans 6:6) This idea of us feeding one or the other places the burden of the fight on us. It is dependent on what we do and not on what Christ has already done.

(01-27-2011 10:07 AM)LutheranEmily Wrote:  Romans 7:14
We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

Romans 7:18 “For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh [“Sarx”: the body, humanity, flesh]) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.”

Our “flesh” is our will and abilities apart from God. “The flesh” is not a nature. Nature is what we are at our very core. In context, Paul concludes that he has been delivered form the “sin nature”
“ O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.” (Romans 7:24-25)

“And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:” (Matthew 12:25). How can the divine, sinless, holy nature, of which we are partakers of (2 Peter 1:4), dwell in the same body with a “sin nature”?

[LutheranEmily]

So... you do not sin then? Since your flesh is already crucified?

That is awesome!

Ladies and gentlemen, we have a sinless man with us!

On a serious note, we are full partakers of the divine nature. Our flesh is crucified *in Christ* but until the resurrection when we are not chained to our bodies, we still sin. I still sin. You still sin. Until we are freed from this body of death, we will sin. And we sin unwillingly, and we sin willingly. When our bodies are put to death, we will not be able to choose to sin.

We are already crucified. We are already new creatures.
We are not yet sinless. Our old bodies will die.

[Just Curious]

There's the "dead and free from the bondage of sin" yet the ability to sin.
The best way I can understand this is that it is a paradox (irony...). Both are true, but my wee human brain can't understand it now. God gives us information we need to know, but just because the information doesn't always seem to fit together logically (human logic) doesn't mean it's not true.

However, I'm nothing close to brilliant. If I'm wrong...don't stone me, please.

[Darrell]

I see this as tied to the concept of "Already...but not yet"

The kingdom of God is now upon us. But we struggle as it is not fully realized.

Already...not yet.

[LutheranEmily]

Exactly Darrell!

We hear that in Lutheran circles all the time.

[LutheranJennifer]

C - Both.

When we are born, we inherit sinfulness from our father. We are in a lost state aka "spiritually dead". When we are born again our sinful flesh is reckoned/declared as dead... but physically we are still in our flesh. You might say that God looks at us through Jesus colored glasses. Also, when we are born again our spirit is made alive and we receive the Holy Spirit. Before we were unable to say no to sin, but now we are able to resist. Not perfectly, all the time, but we have been endowed with a willing spirit that the unregenerate do not posses. It isn't until after the resurrection when we receive our new bodies that the transformation will be complete.

Justification before God is a "forensic declaration". God declares us something that we are not... something that Christ is. We robbed the cash register and the die packs exploded all over our clothes and we stand in the courtroom and the judge slams the gavel "Innocent!" (on account of Christ). The Holy Spirit is a seal or a deposit of the fullness that is to come.

Hope that helps.