Were the fundies right?

[pastor's wife]

(01-01-2012 10:03 AM)tiarali Wrote:  Although it reminds me of the point that punctuation really, really matters

As an English teacher, I will give loud affirmation to this!

[myotch]

I'll throw this tired adage out, and maybe some of you will find this new.

In his day, Mozart's music was considered rebellious, too new, and frowned upon. Why? Because the young people were flocking to hear him.

A guitarist friend was helping give my son some pointers, some direction (my mom's gift of music has skipped a generation. I play a little bass, but have no real talent for music. My son figured out the clarinet in a week, and was playing chords on the guitar the day I bought it for him).

So my guitarist friend says to my son "If you want to play pop, learn blues. If you want to play metal, learn classical." My son does prefer metal).

A lot of us don't question *if* classical music, or rather if the classical music we associate with classical music, can or does glorify God, or if God would appreciate us listening to it. Even that rebellious Mozart.

Most of the old hymns of the faith my mom likes were written in the 1920's, and have that 1920's style and flourish. Martin Luther's "A mighty Fortress is our God" had a baroque style with a German influence and features an oddly heavy-hitting beat.

There may be some old codgers that don't like CCM because it sounds like secular music, but I think that was always the case. There isn't a particular Christian succession of notes that define it as Christian. Music for Christian singing has always been made in a style of the day. I don't think drums and an electric guitar make music necessarily secular.

It's the message that's suffering with today's music. The great old hymns of the faith delivered powerful doctrine, and the message stands the test of time. Today's CCM is disposable, "God loves you", and as praise music, does off as cheap praise. It seems listener/singer oriented instead of providing a Kingdom focus.

I like some CCM. If you can't get excited in your praise with Michael W. Smith's "You are Holy", then something wrong with you (just kidding, sorta). But there's raise, and then there's doctrine, or the validation of the creeds in various ways, or the nature of God exposed in a particular piece of the old hymns that is just missing in the new songs.

Is it because Christians are so divided over doctrines, focus, "distinctives"? Is it because a denominationalist song writer would be more motivated to pen lyrics about distinctives?

[Recovering]

For whatever reason, I've always been more comfortable with plain old rock or death metal than with music which couples those things with Christian lyrics. That might just be residual fundyness. :-) I certainly don't think that kind of music is somehow sinful.

I do think sound is important, though not in the way fundies believe. The problem with the whole beat=sex=evil is not the first part, but the second. Some beats really are sexy, or at least sensual. Some are angry, while others are just energetic. The problem with the equation is the idea that sensuality and anger are wrong emotions for a Christian to feel, and thus the music that encourages them is also wrong.

And anyway, it's not like a beat has much meaning of its own apart from all of the other components of the music.

I do think that music can be out of place, though it is a lot more subjective and cultural than fundies think. We have a general cultural understanding and expectation regarding music that allows music to communicate to us, though of course that communication is broad and will be differently interpreted by different people. So we can think that a particular melody doesn't fit its lyrics, though of course there's probably nothing "absolute" about that melody that makes it out of place. Fundies don't like this idea, because if something is subjective or just difficult to define, it means they can't use it to judge and condemn others.

I don't like most CCM for the same reason I don't like a lot of "Christian" literature: a good portion of it is crappy, and most of the rest just doesn't appeal to me aesthetically (again, possibly leftover from a fundy upbringing :-)). This is all really beside the point, though. I like a lot of other crappy music just fine. :-)

[pastor's wife]

(01-01-2012 11:04 AM)myotch Wrote:  It's the message that's suffering with today's music. The great old hymns of the faith delivered powerful doctrine, and the message stands the test of time. Today's CCM is disposable, "God loves you", and as praise music, does off as cheap praise. It seems listener/singer oriented instead of providing a Kingdom focus.

I like some CCM. If you can't get excited in your praise with Michael W. Smith's "You are Holy", then something wrong with you (just kidding, sorta). But there's raise, and then there's doctrine, or the validation of the creeds in various ways, or the nature of God exposed in a particular piece of the old hymns that is just missing in the new songs.

I think some of the difference is a matter of focus and formality. Most of the hymns are written in a formal style with long stanzas and long sentences. This formal style encourages writers to add detail and elaborate on a theme. Praise songs on the other hand and more simple and direct. They usually (at least the ones we sing!) do deal with doctrine, but they're not exploring ever facet of it. Instead they present an aspect of truth that is then repeated so the singer can focus on that thought. It seems closer to the style of the Psalms actually to me.

For example, here is the song "Let It Go" by Tenth Avenue North:

Quote: I've been holding on so tight
Look at these knuckles
They've gone white
I'm fighting for who I wanna be
I'm just trying to find security

But You say let it go, You say let it go
You say life is waiting for the ones that lose control
You say you will be, everything I need
You said if I lose my life it's then I'll find my soul
You say let it go.

Well it's hard enough to hear
Harder still, to move beyond this fear
We know there's nothing I can bring,
So tell me what do you want from me?

But You say let it go, You say let it go
You say life is waiting for the one to lose control
You say You will be, everything I need
You said if I lose my life it's then I'll find my soul
You say let it go, You say let it go

What do I love?
What do I hate?
What will I lose?
What will I gain?
How do I save my soul?
What if I bend?
What if I break?
What will it cost?
What will it take?
For you to save my soul.

You say let it go, You say let it go
You say life is waiting for the one to lose control
You say You will be, everything I need
You said if I lose my life it's then I'll find my soul

This song focuses on Matt. 10:39: "If you cling to your life, you will lose it; but if you give up your life for me, you will find it." I'm also reminded of Mark 10:28-30 as well as Luke 14:26 - "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple" as well as the exhortation to leave everything behind - our own efforts, our own righteous deeds, etc. - to trust Christ alone.

I think there's a powerful truth in this song, but the approach is certainly not as formal as in a hymn. I think the approach in praise choruses seems to be more emotional as one meditates on a truth of Scripture, while hymns may be more cerebral or intellectual as we sing about some of the implications of those truths. It perhaps is the difference between a detailed scientific dissection and description of a flower versus a Monet painting of a field of flowers. They both explore the same topic in different ways.

[hockeychick38]

Two points that I totally agree on:

(01-01-2012 11:22 AM)Recovering Wrote:  I don't like most CCM for the same reason I don't like a lot of "Christian" literature: a good portion of it is crappy, and most of the rest just doesn't appeal to me aesthetically (again, possibly leftover from a fundy upbringing :-)).

(01-01-2012 11:22 AM)Recovering Wrote:  For whatever reason, I've always been more comfortable with plain old rock or death metal than with music which couples those things with Christian lyrics.

The thing that makes me dislike "Christian" music is that most "Christian" bands are lousy copycats of secular bands. They just throw in some stuff about God and change the melody a little. For example, when my fundy parents "loosened up" and started allowing me to listen to CCM, I thought this one Christian band was so great. Then when I got out into the real world, I realized that band was just a wanna-be imitation of Blink-182.

I'm not saying Christian music should not exist, but sometimes secular music feels more genuine. Oftentimes I feel that Christian bands and singers are trying to cater to two different crowds - Christian and secular - and failing miserably. What we need to do is drop the titles. A band can be Christian in name only. I have found bands with Christian members who don't flaunt their faith or put "Christian" under their band description, but the lyrics definitely reflect their beliefs.

To me what matters is how the music affects you. There is no inherently evil type of music nor are any instruments particularly evil. I enjoy listening to metal, hardcore, dubstep, punk, indie, all kinds of stuff... It makes me feel good. Even "dark" music can be a release. However, I know what music brings me down and that is the stuff that I know personally I should not be listening to. That category of "what you should not be listening to" is different for every person. For some, rock music does affect them negatively, and then they really shouldn't listen to it. For others, it might be fine. There's no hard and fast rule that applies to everybody.

Just like how Paul says the whole thing about eating the consecrated meat. As Christians we have the freedom to make choices. But we need to make sure that those choices do not hurt other believers.

[M Go Blue]

(12-31-2011 04:16 PM)mirandaluzdivina Wrote:  Just to illustrate my point about sound being irrelevant, I thought I'd share this clip of a string quartet's rendition of Iron Maiden's "Number of the Beast." Without knowing the band or the title, would you ever guess that this was a metal song?

A group I listen to quite a bit, Apocalyptica, started off doing (mainly) Metallica songs on their cellos. It's pretty sweet.

[M Go Blue]

(01-20-2012 12:53 AM)hockeychick38 Wrote:  Two points that I totally agree on:

(01-01-2012 11:22 AM)Recovering Wrote:  I don't like most CCM for the same reason I don't like a lot of "Christian" literature: a good portion of it is crappy, and most of the rest just doesn't appeal to me aesthetically (again, possibly leftover from a fundy upbringing :-)).

(01-01-2012 11:22 AM)Recovering Wrote:  For whatever reason, I've always been more comfortable with plain old rock or death metal than with music which couples those things with Christian lyrics.

The thing that makes me dislike "Christian" music is that most "Christian" bands are lousy copycats of secular bands. They just throw in some stuff about God and change the melody a little. For example, when my fundy parents "loosened up" and started allowing me to listen to CCM, I thought this one Christian band was so great. Then when I got out into the real world, I realized that band was just a wanna-be imitation of Blink-182.

I'm not saying Christian music should not exist, but sometimes secular music feels more genuine. Oftentimes I feel that Christian bands and singers are trying to cater to two different crowds - Christian and secular - and failing miserably. What we need to do is drop the titles. A band can be Christian in name only. I have found bands with Christian members who don't flaunt their faith or put "Christian" under their band description, but the lyrics definitely reflect their beliefs.

To me what matters is how the music affects you. There is no inherently evil type of music nor are any instruments particularly evil. I enjoy listening to metal, hardcore, dubstep, punk, indie, all kinds of stuff... It makes me feel good. Even "dark" music can be a release. However, I know what music brings me down and that is the stuff that I know personally I should not be listening to. That category of "what you should not be listening to" is different for every person. For some, rock music does affect them negatively, and then they really shouldn't listen to it. For others, it might be fine. There's no hard and fast rule that applies to everybody.

Just like how Paul says the whole thing about eating the consecrated meat. As Christians we have the freedom to make choices. But we need to make sure that those choices do not hurt other believers.

This sums up my views on music to a T. I've never been a big fan of CCM, though I do love listening to rock, techno, and other kinds of music that I know people in my church would pitch a fit over. However, it's not that I think "Christian Rock" is bad. It just ain't my cup of tea. Most of the CCM I've heard through the years doesn't have the same musical quality (in my humble opinion) that I've heard from non CCM artists.