Doctrine vs. Morality

[Tina's Marine]

I was reading a book and came across this statement. I had to think about this plus the author goes on to explain but I wanted to hear what some others had to say.

"What disturbed me most about this young pastor was the obvious fact that he valued doctrine more highly than his moral life."

This is not referring to anyone we know and I don't want this about a particular person. My question is this....

IS DOCTRINE MORE IMPORTANT THAN MORALITY?

OR

IS MORALITY MORE IMPORTANT THAN DOCTRINE?

AND

WHY?

[Away-From-The-Umbrella]

(12-09-2011 10:38 PM)Tinas Marine Wrote:  I was reading a book and came across this statement. I had to think about this plus the author goes on to explain but I wanted to hear what some others had to say.

"What disturbed me most about this young pastor was the obvious fact that he valued doctrine more highly than his moral life."

This is not referring to anyone we know and I don't want this about a particular person. My question is this....

IS DOCTRINE MORE IMPORTANT THAN MORALITY?

OR

IS MORALITY MORE IMPORTANT THAN DOCTRINE?

AND

WHY?

I suspect the trouble comes when one has bad doctrine which leads to a warped morality. IMHO good doctrine should bring about good morality.

For example, if pastor worship has crept into a church then people will lie, manipulate and deny reality to maintain that pastor worship.

[Qrayze]

I believe this is how it works in fundystan:

Preacher: My doctrine is more important than my morality because you should do what I say and not what I do. Your morality is more important that your doctrine because the world is watching everything you do, and you shouldn't be a bad example of Jesus Christ.

[pastor's wife]

I think there has to be a balance. That's why James says that faith without works is dead.

James 2:24 is a very shocking verse: "You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone." I can't deny James in favor of Paul. Both must be speaking truth. So in my opinion if what you believe does not produce fruit in godly conduct (or morality), either you must repent or I would question your salvation.

I would agree with the writer who was leery of someone who valued doctrine over personal morality: that person would be giving himself a pass on moral lapses as long as he "believed the right thing." Well, James 2 says even the devils believe and tremble.

It's not right to do good things without believing in Jesus; but it's also not right to believe in Jesus while NOT doing good things.

[Monipenny]

That's a good question and I am glad you asked. If my response doesn't make any sense, well, that's because it's 2:00 in the morning.

Morallity!!!! I don't care what the man-o-gawd days, he's wrong.

I am sorry, I'll have to answer the why question later after some sleep.

[Tiarali]

The bible says that without faith it is impossible to please God. The flipside is that it might be possible to please God if you have faith but you don't have all your doctrine correct.

Then you have the bible says that faith without works is dead.

So what? Love God, do good. If you can, get your doctrine right.

So I would argue that (morality + faith) > (doctrine)

There are people who have their doctrine "correct" (they believe) who I think end up putting their faith in their doctrine and their own correctness than in Jesus. There are people who have a focus on morality and who do a lot of great things, and put their faith in their "goodness" rather than Jesus. Neither can please God. At least those who value morality help others, even though they aren't pleasing God.

If you do have faith in Jesus, and you focus on your morality, you will be loving others, which means that at least some of your doctrine will be correct If your focus is on doctrine, to the loss of morality, you will be forsaking the loving of others, so your doctrine won't really be correct anyway.

[FmrMarine]

(12-09-2011 11:11 PM)pastors wife Wrote:  I think there has to be a balance. That's why James says that faith without works is dead.

James 2:24 is a very shocking verse: "You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone." I can't deny James in favor of Paul. Both must be speaking truth. So in my opinion if what you believe does not produce fruit in godly conduct (or morality), either you must repent or I would question your salvation.

I would agree with the writer who was leery of someone who valued doctrine over personal morality: that person would be giving himself a pass on moral lapses as long as he "believed the right thing." Well, James 2 says even the devils believe and tremble.

It's not right to do good things without believing in Jesus; but it's also not right to believe in Jesus while NOT doing good things.

It's not right to do good things without believing in Jesus? What kind of statement is that? Only believers can treat others well? Be charitable? Make positive contributions to society? I must be missing something or misreading your comment.

[pastor's wife]

You are misreading my comment. Of course people of different religions or none can be charitable and do positive things.

I am answering the OP discussing what the Bible says that God expects of believers: doctrine or morality. As someone quoted earlier, "without faith it is impossible to please Him." Thus, from an orthodox Christian position, in the eyes of God, both good works AND faith in Christ are what God asks of us.

[FmrMarine]

(12-10-2011 09:40 AM)pastors wife Wrote:  You are misreading my comment. Of course people of different religions or none can be charitable and do positive things.

I am answering the OP discussing what the Bible says that God expects of believers: doctrine or morality. As someone quoted earlier, "without faith it is impossible to please Him." Thus, from an orthodox Christian position, in the eyes of God, both good works AND faith in Christ are what God asks of us.

Ok. Thanks for clarifying.

[Monipenny]

Why? Here goes my attempt to explain the big question, why. First of all I acknowledge that some here will disagree with me, fine, disagree, I will agree to disagree. I do not wish to debate our disagreement as futile as it will be, there is no point. On that note, this is just my opinion.

The church who adheres to a book they refere to "Gods word" is based on beliefs, doctrine that make up the church's set of beliefs, secondary is morality. With morality weighing second, this gives the church a whole lot of leverage and ability to control and manipulate.

In my past as a faithful christian with very high morals, unlike some, I really lived what I believed. Those christians who do not live what they believe, well what about doctrine, does that not matter? If doctrine comes first and claims to believe such doctrine why do their morals fail to line up with their beliefs? Because those beliefs are not as important as so claimed, where does that place their morality on this scale especially if below doctrine? Low! Anyway as I was saying, as a past faithful christian with high morals, this question would have been hard for me to honestly answer without explaining how the two supposedly go hand in hand. I would had to have serioulsy given this question you asked a very long hard consideration. My answer would have been doctrine because it's "faith" which is belief which is doctrine that christians rests their hope in for eternal life since good behaviour merits nothing toward that end.

Now, as a non christian doctrine means nothing to me and it disgusts me to see some who do not value morality especially those claiming to be christians. To me, ones beliefs means nothing if their morality does not line up with their doctrine, I will be so bold as to say, immoral christians do not truely believe a doctrine that is to be utmost important. I am not talking about little sins, breaking the speed limit, women in slacks, smoking, cursing etc., So no one is perfect, so what, but there is no excuse for some things that some people even some "christians" ought to be in prison for.