AIG - Really?

[Naomi]

I think the sign is saying that people who don't believe in God 1) have no moral sense and 2) are dangerous and threatening. I find it very offensive.

They may* have intended a slightly more nuanced reading about people confusing evolutionary theory with social darwinism and thus suggesting that school shootings are caused by not believing creationism (and also that Christians who aren't as literal-7-day-creationist as they are don't care about God), but I think my perspective is much more likely to be most people's reaction upon seeing it. It's just a billboard, after all, and other readings would require a lot more contextual knowledge.

* I think it's pretty unlikely. That would mean they're unbelievably incompetent at coming up with an advertisement to promote their message.

[just_a_thinker]

Quote:You said "My original point is that this sign is offensive and I cannot fathom one positive aspect." That is merely one opinion among millions!! and btw, you are welcome to it.

If I'm welcome to it why did you fly off the handle about it earlier?

Quote:I never said that it produced any positive outcomes or that it was supposed to "convert" people. Who is putting words in someone's mouth now?

You still are. I did not put words in your mouth, I asked for your opinion.

Quote:I'm not compelled to to tell you how this sign can positively effect anything, I was merely commenting that I concurred with the "lofty" minds at AIG for their reason for putting up this sign. Your bias against AIG is showing with this type of sarcasm.

I do apprecitate greatly the wonderful ministry of AIG, and their dedication of getting out the words of truth to a lost and dying world. Do I think that putting up this billboard was the "best" way to spread their message? I don't know, but I certainly 1) respect their "right" to put up any legal sign they want to and 2) their dedication to spreading the truth about Darwinism and all its follies 3) and their dedication to our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Am I being terribly unreasonable?

I am biased against AIG because of things like this sign. I read their publications for 5 or so years before I decided I no longer wished to be supporting them when they pull stunts like this. You say that you concur with AIG in putting up this sign, so I ask you again - why? What could possibly be the positive outcome of it?

I also respect their right to put up their sign. But I also respect my right to call them out on a sign that offensive and unfounded. And I found it interesting the order you listed their dedication, because I do believe they are more dedicated to disproving darwinism than they are to Jesus as they have shown by their actions towards those who worship the same God but have different opinions as to how the world began.

Despite our many differences though, I do wish you the very best Wednesday!

[Trapped Pentecostal]

(12-07-2011 03:22 PM)just_a_thinker Wrote:  And I found it interesting the order you listed their dedication, because I do believe they are more dedicated to disproving darwinism than they are to Jesus as they have shown by their actions towards those who worship the same God but have different opinions as to how the world began.

Their agenda is more like 1) make money, 2) attempt to disprove "Darwinism," 3) talk about Jesus, 4) make more money.

"Hey, look! Darwinism is wrong, because we imagine God says so through a faulty modern interpretation of ancient poetry! Buy our stuff!"

That pretty much sums up all of AIG.

[Scorpio]

So just for fun I went to AIG's web page. Right on the front page in the middle are 2 links to Spurgeon sermons. And right below that is the "Spurgeon daily devotions".

I guess the folks at AIG are Calvinists. Unless they edit his writings to cut out all that Calvinistic stuff. They wouldn't do something like that, would they?

[lucrezaborgia]

(12-05-2011 08:10 PM)greg Wrote:  AIG contends that this indicates that school massacres are in part created by the teaching of evolution in public schools, I completely concur.

How so? I'm completely baffled as to how teaching evolution is the "gateway drug" to violence.

A general note on this thread: Darwin didn't come up with the phrase "survival of the fittest." That was Herbert Spencer. Darwin's theory of evolution came up at a time when Europe was embarking on Imperialism and other ventures and grand ideas. Darwin's ideas were used to support racist ideology, but Darwin didn't invent it. It's way too simplistic to blame evolution for social issues such as mass murder and whatnot.

[Tiarali]

They argue more that it is belief in God that gives us the feeling of their being a purpose and morality. Any morality that's based on anything besides the bible is going to be subjective - every man can have whatever morality they want. In your morality, if other people don't matter to you, then they can do whatever they can get away with. There is no eternal judgement, no God to oversee their actions.

Furthermore, there is an argument that people who do not believe that God loves them and has a purpose for them are more likely to be depressed and act out in violent ways because of the idea that they are just an accident, they are not loved. They would argue that a person who doesn't come from a loving family, who is abused perhaps, who doesn't have a person step in and show them love, and who doesn't believe that there is a God who put them here for a purpose and who loves them unconditionally would have a harder time acting in an ethically responsible manner than a person who faces those earthly challenges but believes that there is a God who is on their side and who cares whether they act responsibly or not.

And their primary target would be christians who don't think creation is a serious issue. They're telling them to man up and make a stand for what the bible says. Everyone here is right when they say that everybody who sees this who isn't a christian is going to be completely turned away from the gospel as a result. It was not a wise advertising choice.

*****Not necessarily my views. I grew up reading AiG. I still consider myself young earth creationist. I no longer consider myself fundamentalist. So a lot of my ideas are being subtly changed.

[lucrezaborgia]

The below isn't an attack on you tiarali. Merely a commentary on your commentary.

(12-07-2011 08:43 PM)tiarali Wrote:  Any morality that's based on anything besides the bible is going to be subjective - every man can have whatever morality they want. In your morality, if other people don't matter to you, then they can do whatever they can get away with. There is no eternal judgement, no God to oversee their actions.

That does not make any sense to me. Biblical morality isn't absolute and many of those morals aren't exclusive to Christianity. I can't speak for all of humanity, but I try not to do bad things because I believe that we should have respect for our fellow humanity and doing unto others as they wish to have done unto them.

(12-07-2011 08:43 PM)tiarali Wrote:  Furthermore, there is an argument that people who do not believe that God loves them and has a purpose for them are more likely to be depressed and act out in violent ways because of the idea that they are just an accident, they are not loved. They would argue that a person who doesn't come from a loving family, who is abused perhaps, who doesn't have a person step in and show them love, and who doesn't believe that there is a God who put them here for a purpose and who loves them unconditionally would have a harder time acting in an ethically responsible manner than a person who faces those earthly challenges but believes that there is a God who is on their side and who cares whether they act responsibly or not.

It's not as if the world was a perfect place before evolution came around. Evolution isn't the only part of science that can discredit young earth creationism yet even then evolution does not discredit the possibility of the Christian god being real. That all depends on how you view the bible of course...

Psychopaths are born, not made. They can be raised in the most loving home, suffer no abuse, believe in god in some fashion, and still act entirely in their own self-interest. It's a myth that people who do bad things do so because something in their past broke them. BTK was not just a church goer, he was president of the congregation council. He also was not abused as a child and is considered by experts to have had a very normal life. Of course, not every person who does bad things is a psychopath but I'd definitely credit mass killers along the lines of psychopaths and mentally deranged people. This also does not count for institutionalized mass murder.

(12-07-2011 08:43 PM)tiarali Wrote:  And their primary target would be christians who don't think creation is a serious issue. They're telling them to man up and make a stand for what the bible says. Everyone here is right when they say that everybody who sees this who isn't a christian is going to be completely turned away from the gospel as a result. It was not a wise advertising choice.

I wouldn't consider it offensive as much as a waste of time and money. While evolution is a pillar of biology today, it's not the main topic of discussion in science classes in the way that the foundation of a home is important but it's not the home itself. Teachers probably spend a day or two on evolution. There is way too much content to cover in a short period of time. My recollection of it was pictures of how mammal bone structures were all similar regardless of species and then some discussion on how Darwin put it all together and then how scientists have seen this in the fossil record as well. The social implications of evolution were never discussed. In fact, I can't think of a single thing about evolution that made me think anything other than: "Oh...I didn't know whale flippers had hand-like bones underneath...cool!" In college biology my class spent a grand total of ONE lecture on evolution and my professor was very honest and said that we will probably never have the answers as to what set it all in motion. God? Aliens? Chance? I don't doubt that there are some professors out there who are hell-bent on disillusioning students of their faith...but I have to say that I've never experienced that. Why can't fundies get it that attacking Christians just for believing in god isn't the main agenda for professors and schools?

[Tiarali]

Yeah, I don't think that they think so much that people who believe in evolution are at danger of pointing guns at people as they think that people who don't believe in a literal six-day creation and the God who goes along with it are in danger of pointing guns at people.

It's not so much the teaching of evolution, it's the lack of belief in creation.

So they wouldn't necessarily say that if you have been taught social darwinism you will justify x based on your beliefs, but that since you don't believe in a biblical creation you are capable of x. I have heard the argument that evolutionary belief leads specifically to atrocities, but I don't think that's the point they're trying to make in that billboard.

Like the IFB's - if you're not like us in every way, shape, or form, you're against us. It doesn't matter if you're a born again christian, if you're not a carbon copy of our pastor you're a danger.

They're fundamentalists really, just focussing on one particular doctrine.

[lucrezaborgia]

(12-07-2011 11:16 PM)tiarali Wrote:  It's not so much the teaching of evolution, it's the lack of belief in creation.

So they wouldn't necessarily say that if you have been taught social darwinism you will justify x based on your beliefs, but that since you don't believe in a biblical creation you are capable of x.

They're fundamentalists really, just focussing on one particular doctrine.

Yeah...but you can't believe that evolution is real if you believe in a literal 6-day creation. They might not be intending to saying what I said outright, but that's how I reacted to it. Besides, plenty of people who believe in the bible engage in murder, rape, and all those other activities society considers crimes. According to the map Darrell posted last month lots of people in the US consider themselves to be conservative Christians yet I don't see us living in utopia just yet. One could say that is because the unbelievers are the ones doing most of the crimes but is that really true?

[Elijah Craig]

Social Darwinism is almost a meaningless phrase. Evolutionary theories teach that human beings evolved as social animals and that our moral codes are part of that.

There are plenty of people who believe that evolution happens but that the world was created in seven literal days. In other words, Creationists deny evolution as a theory of origins but do not deny that evolution happens.